1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Disowning Conservative Politics, Evangelical Pastor Rattles Flock

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by dc rock, Jul 30, 2006.

  1. dc rock

    dc rock Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2001
    Messages:
    7,666
    Likes Received:
    13,510
    Disowning Conservative Politics, Evangelical Pastor Rattles Flock

    By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

    MAPLEWOOD, Minn. — Like most pastors who lead thriving evangelical megachurches, the Rev. Gregory A. Boyd was asked frequently to give his blessing — and the church’s — to conservative political candidates and causes.

    The requests came from church members and visitors alike: Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services? Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit? Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work? Would the church distribute “voters’ guides” that all but endorsed Republican candidates? And with the country at war, please couldn’t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary?

    After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up, he said. Before the last presidential election, he preached six sermons called “The Cross and the Sword” in which he said the church should steer clear of politics, give up moralizing on sexual issues, stop claiming the United States as a “Christian nation” and stop glorifying American military campaigns.

    “When the church wins the culture wars, it inevitably loses,” Mr. Boyd preached. “When it conquers the world, it becomes the world. When you put your trust in the sword, you lose the cross.”

    Mr. Boyd says he is no liberal. He is opposed to abortion and thinks homosexuality is not God’s ideal. The response from his congregation at Woodland Hills Church here in suburban St. Paul — packed mostly with politically and theologically conservative, middle-class evangelicals — was passionate. Some members walked out of a sermon and never returned. By the time the dust had settled, Woodland Hills, which Mr. Boyd founded in 1992, had lost about 1,000 of its 5,000 members.

    But there were also congregants who thanked Mr. Boyd, telling him they were moved to tears to hear him voice concerns they had been too afraid to share.

    “Most of my friends are believers,” said Shannon Staiger, a psychotherapist and church member, “and they think if you’re a believer, you’ll vote for Bush. And it’s scary to go against that.”

    Sermons like Mr. Boyd’s are hardly typical in today’s evangelical churches. But the upheaval at Woodland Hills is an example of the internal debates now going on in some evangelical colleges, magazines and churches. A common concern is that the Christian message is being compromised by the tendency to tie evangelical Christianity to the Republican Party and American nationalism, especially through the war in Iraq.

    At least six books on this theme have been published recently, some by Christian publishing houses. Randall Balmer, a religion professor at Barnard College and an evangelical, has written “Thy Kingdom Come: How the Religious Right Distorts the Faith and Threatens America — an Evangelical’s Lament.”

    And Mr. Boyd has a new book out, “The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church,” which is based on his sermons.

    “There is a lot of discontent brewing,” said Brian D. McLaren, the founding pastor at Cedar Ridge Community Church in Gaithersburg, Md., and a leader in the evangelical movement known as the “emerging church,” which is at the forefront of challenging the more politicized evangelical establishment.

    “More and more people are saying this has gone too far — the dominance of the evangelical identity by the religious right,” Mr. McLaren said. “You cannot say the word ‘Jesus’ in 2006 without having an awful lot of baggage going along with it. You can’t say the word ‘Christian,’ and you certainly can’t say the word ‘evangelical’ without it now raising connotations and a certain cringe factor in people.

    “Because people think, ‘Oh no, what is going to come next is homosexual bashing, or pro-war rhetoric, or complaining about ‘activist judges.’ ”

    Mr. Boyd said he had cleared his sermons with the church’s board, but his words left some in his congregation stunned. Some said that he was disrespecting President Bush and the military, that he was soft on abortion or telling them not to vote.

    “When we joined years ago, Greg was a conservative speaker,” said William Berggren, a lawyer who joined the church with his wife six years ago. “But we totally disagreed with him on this. You can’t be a Christian and ignore actions that you feel are wrong. A case in point is the abortion issue. If the church were awake when abortion was passed in the 70’s, it wouldn’t have happened. But the church was asleep.”

    Mr. Boyd, 49, who preaches in blue jeans and rumpled plaid shirts, leads a church that occupies a squat block-long building that was once a home improvement chain store.

    The church grew from 40 members in 12 years, based in no small part on Mr. Boyd’s draw as an electrifying preacher who stuck closely to Scripture. He has degrees from Yale Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, and he taught theology at Bethel College in St. Paul, where he created a controversy a few years ago by questioning whether God fully knew the future. Some pastors in his own denomination, the Baptist General Conference, mounted an effort to evict Mr. Boyd from the denomination and his teaching post, but he won that battle.

    He is known among evangelicals for a bestselling book, “Letters From a Skeptic,” based on correspondence with his father, a leftist union organizer and a lifelong agnostic — an exchange that eventually persuaded his father to embrace Christianity.

    Mr. Boyd said he never intended his sermons to be taken as merely a critique of the Republican Party or the religious right. He refuses to share his party affiliation, or whether he has one, for that reason. He said there were Christians on both the left and the right who had turned politics and patriotism into “idolatry.”

    He said he first became alarmed while visiting another megachurch’s worship service on a Fourth of July years ago. The service finished with the chorus singing “God Bless America” and a video of fighter jets flying over a hill silhouetted with crosses.

    “I thought to myself, ‘What just happened? Fighter jets mixed up with the cross?’ ” he said in an interview.

    Patriotic displays are still a mainstay in some evangelical churches. Across town from Mr. Boyd’s church, the sanctuary of North Heights Lutheran Church was draped in bunting on the Sunday before the Fourth of July this year for a “freedom celebration.” Military veterans and flag twirlers paraded into the sanctuary, an enormous American flag rose slowly behind the stage, and a Marine major who had served in Afghanistan preached that the military was spending “your hard-earned money” on good causes.

    In his six sermons, Mr. Boyd laid out a broad argument that the role of Christians was not to seek “power over” others — by controlling governments, passing legislation or fighting wars. Christians should instead seek to have “power under” others — “winning people’s hearts” by sacrificing for those in need, as Jesus did, Mr. Boyd said.

    “America wasn’t founded as a theocracy,” he said. “America was founded by people trying to escape theocracies. Never in history have we had a Christian theocracy where it wasn’t bloody and barbaric. That’s why our Constitution wisely put in a separation of church and state.

    “I am sorry to tell you,” he continued, “that America is not the light of the world and the hope of the world. The light of the world and the hope of the world is Jesus Christ.”

    Mr. Boyd lambasted the “hypocrisy and pettiness” of Christians who focus on “sexual issues” like homosexuality, abortion or Janet Jackson’s breast-revealing performance at the Super Bowl halftime show. He said Christians these days were constantly outraged about sex and perceived violations of their rights to display their faith in public.

    “Those are the two buttons to push if you want to get Christians to act,” he said. “And those are the two buttons Jesus never pushed.”

    Some Woodland Hills members said they applauded the sermons because they had resolved their conflicted feelings. David Churchill, a truck driver for U.P.S. and a Teamster for 26 years, said he had been “raised in a religious-right home” but was torn between the Republican expectations of faith and family and the Democratic expectations of his union.

    When Mr. Boyd preached his sermons, “it was liberating to me,” Mr. Churchill said.

    Mr. Boyd gave his sermons while his church was in the midst of a $7 million fund-raising campaign. But only $4 million came in, and 7 of the more than 50 staff members were laid off, he said.

    Mary Van Sickle, the family pastor at Woodland Hills, said she lost 20 volunteers who had been the backbone of the church’s Sunday school.

    “They said, ‘You’re not doing what the church is supposed to be doing, which is supporting the Republican way,’ ” she said. “It was some of my best volunteers.”

    The Rev. Paul Eddy, a theology professor at Bethel College and the teaching pastor at Woodland Hills, said: “Greg is an anomaly in the megachurch world. He didn’t give a whit about church leadership, never read a book about church growth. His biggest fear is that people will think that all church is is a weekend carnival, with people liking the worship, the music, his speaking, and that’s it.”

    In the end, those who left tended to be white, middle-class suburbanites, church staff members said. In their place, the church has added more members who live in the surrounding community — African-Americans, Hispanics and Hmong immigrants from Laos.

    This suits Mr. Boyd. His vision for his church is an ethnically and economically diverse congregation that exemplifies Jesus’ teachings by its members’ actions. He, his wife and three other families from the church moved from the suburbs three years ago to a predominantly black neighborhood in St. Paul.

    Mr. Boyd now says of the upheaval: “I don’t regret any aspect of it at all. It was a defining moment for us. We let go of something we were never called to be. We just didn’t know the price we were going to pay for doing it.”

    His congregation of about 4,000 is still digesting his message. Mr. Boyd arranged a forum on a recent Wednesday night to allow members to sound off on his new book. The reception was warm, but many of the 56 questions submitted in writing were pointed: Isn’t abortion an evil that Christians should prevent? Are you saying Christians should not join the military? How can Christians possibly have “power under” Osama bin Laden? Didn’t the church play an enormously positive role in the civil rights movement?

    One woman asked: “So why NOT us? If we contain the wisdom and grace and love and creativity of Jesus, why shouldn’t we be the ones involved in politics and setting laws?”

    Mr. Boyd responded: “I don’t think there’s a particular angle we have on society that others lack. All good, decent people want good and order and justice. Just don’t slap the label ‘Christian’ on it.”
     
  2. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    these concerns are my concerns. i resonate BIG TIME with what's been labelled the "emerging church" movement, by some. this rejection of the marriage of the cross with the flag is one attribute of that movement.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church

    the names of the people associated with this, listed in the link above, are people who have been very influential in my faith. chris seay is a friend of mine. no one "thought" or "movement" can ever describe any individual's faith completely...but i resonate big time with this movement and feel it has a certain cleansing, "reforming" (lots of baggage with that word! :) ) sort of taste to it, for me.
     
  3. lpbman

    lpbman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2001
    Messages:
    4,240
    Likes Received:
    816
    I'm not terribly religious but if anything deserves an AMEN it's this.
     
  4. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    These people are ****ing psychotic.
     
  5. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    19
    I don't know Republicans are necessarily more evil than Democrats. As the current events in Middle East unfold and you look at the reaction from the Congress, do you really find Democrat leaders uphold the moral principles more than their counterparts across the isle do?
     
  6. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    Wnes, you should know better than to accuse me of that. I would say the exact same thing if a bunch of loonies decreed that "god said we should support democrats".

    Combining politics with religion is just asking for uninformed, ignorant, and bigotted policy.
     
  7. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    19
    Sorry rhada, my rant wasn't directed at you, but rather at the deafening silence on the part of Democrat leadership in the face of Israeli war crime atrocity.

    You are right, blending politics and religion is extremely dangerous and a recipie for dark age.
     
  8. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    Understood. The silence is not at all surprising. The Democrats are on good terms with numerous jewish interest groups, just like the republicans milk the "morally upright christian" crowd.

    Both sides are pander to whatever keeps them employed/powerful. Working for the "citizenry" is just lip service to keep the proles happy.
     
  9. Wild Bill

    Wild Bill Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 1999
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    2
    Does this mean the religious are uninformed, ignorant, and bigoted?
     
  10. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    i don't think rhad means that. i certainly don't, though.

    when i step into the voting booth, i'm me. i bring my faith with me. it doesn't go away.

    but the equation of the cross and the flag by conservatives in this country is beyond frightening to me. to me it is mostly frightening because it absolutely sullies the cross. it makes people skeptical of Christ's claims and the faith of Christians when they see people use him to justify all sorts of crap. and it paints a very misleading picture of the Christ I know.
     
  11. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    Not all of them, no.
     
  12. Dubious

    Dubious Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2001
    Messages:
    18,318
    Likes Received:
    5,090
    Jesus was a hippie!
     
  13. Saint Louis

    Saint Louis Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 1999
    Messages:
    4,260
    Likes Received:
    0
    When you start mixing the world of Caesar (the sword) and God (the cross), you are in danger of turning God into Caesar.

    Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
     
  14. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Messages:
    14,382
    Likes Received:
    13
    What if you can make a godlike Caesar salad?
     
  15. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    No, but if the flag and the cross are linked, then it is easier for a bigot to get the uninformed and ignorant among us to support his views.

    Hitler was able to rally people to him because of 1) nationalism and 2) his pandering to religious groups. Hitler was a master at marrying religious and political themes together for maximum impact.

    I am not comparing any of the current leadership to Hitler, nor am I comparing our system to that of the Nazis. I am just saying that allowing a marriage between the cross and the flag has the potential to turn out VERY badly.
     
    #15 GladiatoRowdy, Jul 31, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2006
  16. Saint Louis

    Saint Louis Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 1999
    Messages:
    4,260
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then the salad should be given to your stomach.
     
  17. A_3PO

    A_3PO Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    46,754
    Likes Received:
    12,297
    100% agree except it doesn't frighten me so much as offend me. Equating the Cross to the Republican party degrades the Cross and sullies Jesus in the mud. To this day, one of the reasons it's hard to witness to my sister is because of her revulsion of Religious Right politicos. She knows I'm not Religious Right but her opinion of the Gospel is tainted.
     
  18. No Worries

    No Worries Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    32,889
    Likes Received:
    20,669
    Liberal: Rev. Gregory A. Boyd is a religious leader I don't hate.

    Conservative: Rev. Gregory A. Boyd is an evil minion of Satan to be hated.
     
  19. rhester

    rhester Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,600
    Likes Received:
    104
    This whole thing happening today gives me a big stomachache.

    First- Christianity is not a political movement.
    Second- Republicans and Christians have nothing in common unless a Christian is registered to vote Republican. (religious right - Yucchhhh)
    Third the ministry of the church is evangelism (preaching-witnessing), teaching (Christ's teaching), and good deeds (practical love shown to people).

    Not Politics!

    Genuine Christians do the things I listed.

    I appreciate all the religious freedom afforded me by the government in contrast to being persecuted for my religious faith.

    Take breath...

    I am concerned with God's view of abortion, homosexuality, lying, stealing, marriage, creation, education, the poor, widows, orphans, churches, culture, sexuality, salvation, sin, faith, government, evangelism, prayer, the Bible, the Ten Commandments, health, taxes, war, employment, and greed (to list a few issues)- NOT any man's view or opinion.

    None of these are political issues to me, they are issues of moral conscience. Individual issues we must all stand before God and give account for.

    I believe God's views are clearly stated in the Bible.

    Studies of the church today (Barna research etc) reveal that-
    Less than 2% of Christians share their faith with others (evangelism)
    Less than 20% of Christians read their Bibles regularly (teaching)
    Less money and time is given by Christians to help those in need than any other program in the church (practical love)

    If anyone wants to know the problem with Christianity- I will raise my hand-
    I am a Christian pastor, I am a part of the problem. We Christians need to get our act together. We are Christ's witnesses, His ambassadors and His body on the earth.

    A man was on 6th Street partying in Austin and he told a preacher who I know that Christians are a bunch of hypocrites. My preacher friend asked him to look around and notice all the people laughing and partying and acting happy and joyful. The preacher asked him how many of these people do you think are that way at home? The man told him probably none of them were happy and joyful every day at home. Most of them come out here to get away from their misery. So my preacher friend told him then they are as big of hypocrites as the Christians for trying to make everyone else believe they are happy with their lives.

    Apparently the American church has a good number of hypocrites and there are plenty of hypocrites among the un-churched also.

    I don't want to be a hypocrite. That is far more important to me than politics (which I am losing all respect for). Mega Churches and Emerging churches don't impress me, Jesus impresses me. Watering down Jesus' message to attact the unchurched tells me there is not enough effectual prayer, holy living, Godly character and love in Christians to reach out into our neighborhoods and cities as Christ commanded. So coming up with seeker friendly approaches to attract crowds leaves me empty. The gospel should be preached effectively not glamorized. Jesus said follow Him. But what proceeded that was deny yourself, take up your cross daily. Personal happiness and success OR personal holiness and obedience- has it really come down to that?

    'Politicizing the message of the Gospel' or 'nationalizing the Christian faith' is so self righteous it leaves me angry and sick.

    Jesus is not up for election.

    I need to concern my life with bringing glory to Jesus Christ, not straightening out politics.

    And if anyone thinks Christ would support blowing up an abortion clinic or beating a homosexual or hating a muslim please send me an email.

    Stop the hate.
     
    #19 rhester, Jul 31, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2006
  20. No Worries

    No Worries Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    32,889
    Likes Received:
    20,669
    [​IMG]
    yet here we are ...

    [edit: this image won't show here: http://mocoloco.com/art/archives/edna_mode_head_feb_05.jpg. go figure]
     

Share This Page