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[Dime] Who’s Better: Manu Ginobili or Tracy McGrady?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by abc2007, Dec 17, 2008.

  1. abc2007

    abc2007 Member

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    http://dimemag.com/2008/12/whos-better-manu-ginobili-or-tracy-mcgrady/

    Who’s Better: Manu Ginobili or Tracy McGrady?
    By Dime Magazine

    We argue. You decide…

    MANU GINOBILI (by Andrew Katz)
    Manu’s game is an exercise in frustration. Judging his game on appearance, he doesn’t look like the guy who should be able to tack on 25 points in 30 minutes. And beyond that, he definitely doesn’t look like someone who would make an entire team look bad while doing so. But Ginobili has shown over and over again that looks can be deceiving.

    Ginobili has built one of the most effective offensive arsenals in the League today by using a broader array of moves than anyone else. More than Kobe, Pierce, or anyone playing the game, Manu could easily use 10-15 different moves to beat his man within a 48-minute stretch.

    And playing on a team stacked with talent, it’s got to be blood-boiling to have to step out on Manu and get beaten on his behind-the-back dribble one possession after he hit a step-back jumper from 22.

    He’s a really cerebral player who toys with defenders in the same way that Better Basketball videos teach. First time down, he’ll dribble hard right and get past his defender. On trip number two, he’ll add a second step to that hard dribble by pushing off backwards for a fadeaway. And then on his next touch, he’ll hard dribble right, push back, and then up-fake to draw a foul.

    He builds moves over the course of a game. And that obviously means that Manu’s best, toughest-to-guard combinations come in the fourth quarter. While it’s standard practice to see T-Mac fading away from 23, hoping that he’s locked-in enough to sink an impossible shot, Manu’s going to get a high percentage look when it matters most.

    That translates into wins and losses, but not just in the regular season. Manu’s frustrating late-game antics — on both sides of the ball — are a key part in San Antone’s perennial place deep in the playoffs. Though McGrady shouldn’t shoulder all of the responsibility for his team’s playoff failings, he can’t be completely absolved of blame, either. Over the course of his career, he’s taken almost one full three-pointer more per game in the playoffs than he has during the regular season. And he’s actually made fewer (31.8% 3FG) in the postseason than over the first 82 (33.9% 3FG).

    On the other hand, Ginobili has taken about half a trey more per night in the playoffs over his career, while making exactly the same rate (38% 3FG) in the postseason that he has done over the regular season.

    Even if Manu is a flopper, he gets the job done. And he does it when it counts.

    TRACY MCGRADY (by Austin Burton)
    My standard philosophy is that, in cases where the talent level is essentially even, one man’s credentials as a winner should tip the scales in his favor. That’s why I’m probably the only person I know who would take Tony Parker over Deron Williams; since the talent is about equal, TP’s three championships, one Finals MVP and two All-Star nods give him the edge over Deron’s collective doughnut in those particular categories.

    So you would think that in this case, Manu versus T-Mac, I’d go with the other three-time champion in San Antonio’s backcourt. After all, T-Mac hasn’t even been past the first round of the playoffs — not even close enough to a ‘chip to shoot one of those dramatic “posing with the trophy” ABC commercials. And while that’s not all his fault, it’s not not his fault.

    Here’s the thing, though: T-Mac is significantly more talented than Manu, to the point where his postseason failures don’t matter when determining who is the better player in this instance.

    I have said and will continue to say that, when healthy, McGrady is right up there with Kobe and D-Wade in the NBA two-guard hierarchy. As a scorer, he can go off for 30 points on a whim, against any defense, slicing opponents from anywhere within 25 feet of the rim. And among two-guards and wings, there may not be a better ball-handler or passer in the League. Guys like Wade and Kobe can be amazing passers when they want to be, but what separates T-Mac is that he doesn’t have to “want to.” He’s a natural playmaker, more in the LeBron mold. But that doesn’t mean McGrady is passive at all in crunch time. McGrady knows his role on the team, he knows that the game’s decisive possessions will be in his hands, and he has enough game-winners and clutch buckets under his belt to know when to go into Takeover mode.

    Age and injuries have obviously affected T-Mac’s performance, especially this season as he’s averaging just 16.3 points, 4.5 rebounds and 4.3 assists; statistical low-points in the post-Toronto portion of his career. He’s only 29 years old, but as the Clippers announcers pointed out during Houston’s loss in L.A. over the weekend, Mac’s 700-something career games seems more like 1,000-plus. His biggest problem is that he simply cannot control injuries, just like Gale Sayers couldn’t, just like Grant Hill couldn’t, just like Ken Griffey Jr. couldn’t.

    When his body is cooperating, however, you can count the number of players in the NBA who are flat-out better than Tracy McGrady on one hand. And as it stands, Manu Ginobili doesn’t crack that five-finger roll call.

    Who do you think is better?
     
  2. jVgOwnsYou

    jVgOwnsYou Member

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    I'll take both, but Mcgrady can dominate games when he's healthy. Ginobilli is better as a 2nd or third option.

    mcgrady is a better rebounder, passer, and defender. To me thats the biggest difference.
     
  3. Hydhypedplaya

    Hydhypedplaya Member

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    That was a fun read, thanks for sharing
     
  4. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    all i know is if you take duncan and parker off of that team, spurs won't even sniff the playoffs.

    you take yao and artest, we can still make the playoffs.

    manu knows his role and he does it well. tracy basically does everything.

    but if people only care about rings/team success, well manu's your guy.
     
  5. Rover16

    Rover16 Member

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    I hate manu but manu has more heart than tmac will ever have.
     
  6. jVgOwnsYou

    jVgOwnsYou Member

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    If heart means aggressiveness, then yeh. That's still just one aspect of the game that really is overrated. I'll take skill over aggressiveness any day. Mcgrady has alot more talent and skill.
     
  7. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    no team has ever asked manu to carry a team for a whole season. no team has ever asked manu to be their best player.

    for a guy that averages around 29 minutes per game for his career and around 30 for his playoffs, you better be aggressive in thsoe minutes.

    unless he's as aggressive as wade or lebron for 40 minutes, then we can talk.

    manu switches b/t 2nd and 3rd option on that spurs team. this year, he's their 3rd option with parker emerging.

    can you imagine manu averaging 35 minutes for 15 games? he probably breaks down faster than tracy can sneeze.
     
  8. AstroRocket

    AstroRocket Member

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    Or, replace Ginobili with Tracy, Spurs have even more rings.
     
  9. jVgOwnsYou

    jVgOwnsYou Member

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    This is the key. Mcgrady is more valuable because he can win games by himself if you need him to, but hes versatile enough to play the team game and play it well when needed.

    Both are great players, but Mcgrady is more well rounded.
     
  10. thacabbage

    thacabbage Contributing Member

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    I stopped reading at this point.
     
  11. jVgOwnsYou

    jVgOwnsYou Member

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    Thats a tough argument to make, but you may be right. Ginobilli is a very good fit for that team, but who knows how Mcgrady would play in that situation.

    For the Rockets, mcgrady is the better fit no question.
     
  12. Rover16

    Rover16 Member

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    Heart doesn't mean aggressiveness. Heart means giving a damn and leaving it all out there on the court no matter what. It means playing through injuries and pain unless it's not physically possible.
     
  13. Asian Sensation

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    Substitute Manu on those Orlando teams that Tmac carried to the playoffs. Ask yourself what would've happened. There's your answer.
     
  14. tofu--

    tofu-- Member

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    I think what Manu brings is intensity and consistent, solid, hustle play for all the games he's in. While T-Mac doesn't do that every game, T-Mac is vastly more talented offensively and come playoff time he is extremely driven and posts monstrous numbers.

    I think I would take T-Mac overall, by just a little margin. Manu is an outstanding player, but not a type you can reliably build a franchise around. T-Mac is.
     
  15. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    If you consider health and salary it is a lot closer than some here want to admit.

    DD
     
  16. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    i think manu knows his role and does it well. he knows he's not the best player and focuses on what he can do really well. you have to give him props for that.

    i wouldn't say he's better than joe johnson, roy, or guys liek that b/c those guys "carry" their teams for the ENTIRE SEASON.

    not once has manu done that. if he did, he probably retired after 2 years.

    PS - i don't want to get into circumstantial b/c you don't know how certain players fit. i mean, if you put kobe on that pistons championship team, you can't say the pistons would have won more. you can't measure chemistry...

    but here are manu's playoff stats: if we get this guy, we are not going to get it done this year

    16ppg, 5rpg, 3.5apg, 44% fg
     
  17. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    yes if u take into health, then yes.

    but i think if tracy was healthy (meaning he can play at least 75 games), his salary is justified. there's only 3-4 other players who can do what he does when he's healthy.

    but b/c he's not always healthy, yes, his salary is not justified. and players who are not as good, do appear to be closer.
     
  18. rockmanslim

    rockmanslim Member

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    If healthy, and that's a HUGE if, T-Mac is better, but is even a healthy T-Mac twice as good as Manu? He gets paid twice as much.
     
  19. jVgOwnsYou

    jVgOwnsYou Member

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    Manu misses about the same number of games each year as Mcgrady.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3380/career;_ylt=Atw.KB1OpXQmiuUI7istMZhpPKB4

    How do you measure "giving a damn"....Tmac has a lazy eye, negative points for "giving a damn"
     
  20. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    The argument for Ginobili focuses on what actually gets done on the court. The argument for T-Mac looks at it more hypothetically -- who's more "talented", who's more capable of doing the spectacular, who's better when at full health.
     

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