Championship teams don't always have 5 great individual defensive players but they are great team defensive teams (ie/ veterans who have learned to help each other out) who usually have 1-2 guys who are good defenders. Lakers- Shaq is the immovable force, granted an outside shooting C can hurt him but in the paint he is good. Harper is still a good defensive player (he is not great but he knows where he needs to be) and Kobe when inspired (like in the playoffs) is a good defensive player. Most others on the team are not known as good defensive players but they are all vets who can play. Spurs- Duncan is a good defensive player. The Admiral is also prety good as well. Sean as you noted is a good high intensity defensive player. The guards all knew they had help in the middle and were fundamentally sound (they stay in front of people). Bulls- MJ was good defensively (yep I know hre got a ton of calls but that's not what this argument is about), as was Quitten when he played with MJ. Harper again expended alot of energy on defense and Rodman/Horace Grant both did nice jobs defensively. Other guys knew they had to be active on D and MJ would create open shots for them. Rockets- Dream was (along with Russell) the greatest defender ever. He kept the lane clean. Others all expended alot of energy defensively. Now I could make a couple arguments here. First to win a championship you need to have the best player in the league on your team. The team has to play hard defensively and you have to be hitting your shots. Now I do agree with you that we need a scorer at the 3 next year (especially witht he zone), however we need more D on our team. At least someone who puts forth a good effort every night on the defensive end. Hustle is contagious and I really don't think there are many guys on this team who puts out every night on the defensive end. Too many guys are very active offensively (stevie & cat are great examples) and then are not as active defensively. They are young and hopefully learn to play D. It takes a stud, some d, and a lot of luck to win a championship.
Offense is the best defense ... old Chinese saying. Try reversing this sentence and I will laugh. ------------------
The Spurs have a great interior defense. The guards don't have to worry too often when they get beat, 'cause if the offensive player gets passed them, he'll rarely get a layup out of it. There are 2 legit shot blockers underneath the basket. As long as the back court makes the jumpers difficult, it's all good. The Lakers problems were really more a breakdown in team defense than offensive woes. The offensive problems they had were really a result of too many unwanted outside shots. Often missed outside shots lead to long rebounds which lead to fast breaks. The Lakers aren't a great running team, they would rather slug it out in the half court. Their half court offense and half court defense, when played right, can beat anyone. We need a team defensive strategy, with people knowing what everyone else is gonna do with their man, and positioning themselves to help eachother out. And it starts with a legit shot blocker inside. 2's a coach's dream. I don't think you'll ever see Popovich win coach of the year even though his team's record is one of the best. When you have the best interior defense in the league, you limit the easy shots and you make the offense work for every basket. Must be nice. ------------------ Founding Father of the Refs Suck Club
I think Antonio Davis would actually be a perfect fit here because he not only plays good defense, but his offense is pretty darn good as well and boy can he rebound. This is a guy who can go off any give you 20 and 10 every night. His offense is actually pretty under rated. ------------------ "I would like to live forever, because we should not live forever, because if we were ever supposed to live forever, then we would live forever, but we cannot live forever, which is why I would not live forever." -Miss Alabama in the 1994 Miss Universe contest
Do you have any numbers to support your argument, or is this based on your personal observations? When the Spurs won the title two years ago, they did so by holding opposing teams to the lowest FG% in the league. The Lakers last year did the same thing. The Rockets finished 2nd and third in that category during the two years they won. Every title-winning team except for one in the last dozen years has finished top 10 in defensive FG% (and except for the Bulls, every champion has been top 5). The interior defense of Duncan and Robinson is the reason the Spurs are a title contender. As for the Lakers, the difference between their 67 win team of last season and their 56 win team of this season is that they are allowing 5 more points a game than they did last year. The offensive numbers for the Lakers in the last 2 seasons are almost identical. ------------------ I'm about to boldly go where many men have gone before. [This message has been edited by SamCassell (edited April 24, 2001).]
I think we will see how overrated defense is with the rise or fall of the Bucks! The yobviously have no defensive "strategery" at all. If the Bucks get to the finals, I will believe. ------------------ HEAD KNIGHT: We are now... no longer the Knights Who Say 'Ni'. KNIGHTS OF NI: Ni! Shh! HEAD KNIGHT: Shh! We are now the Knights Who Say 'Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv'.
I think defense is overated. Finding a way to score more than your opponent is the key, be it 80-79 or 125-107. Its the combination of O and D that makes the great teams like the rockets, bulls, spurs, lakers. All could defend and all could score at will. ------------------
Candidate for understatment of the year for the next Clutchcity.net awards presentation. ------------------ HEAD KNIGHT: We are now... no longer the Knights Who Say 'Ni'. KNIGHTS OF NI: Ni! Shh! HEAD KNIGHT: Shh! We are now the Knights Who Say 'Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv'.
Toast: we agree on why the spurs defense is good. no problem there. however, don't forget the reason why their defense is even possible. shooting the best 3pt % in the league and having two legitimate threats in the paint cuts down drastically on easy offensive opportunities for their opponents. i disagree about the breakdown being more on team defense than offensive woes. take the quote from shaq about when you feed the dog, the dog protects the yard better (or somethin' like that). what that tells me is that he felt as if he weren't getting his fair share of shots. i don't know that this comment is saying that there are too many unwarranted outside shots - cause there could have been some drives mixed in there. i think he's saying he wants the ball more. since he's been getting it more (and hitting his free throws) the lakers have been an unstoppable train. **** regarding pop, he's not going to win coach of the year because he's a terrible coach. good gm, though. SamCassell: cliche' time! yea!!! "There are three types of lies...1) lies 2)damn lies and 3)statistics." yes, these are personal observations. and i'll proudly say so, because i can tell more from a game by watching it that anyone can by just reading statistics. ex: your stats regarding the spurs and lakers holding opponents to the lowest FG% is factual. but how much of that is a result of a concise, efficient offense that allows for easy buckets and few transition points? stats can't tell you that. #s,#s,#s. to say that the 5 points per game is the reason they have lost 11 more games doesn't make sense. first of all, the style of offense they play has changed. with kobe jacking up more crazy shots that usual, the offensive opportunities their opponents enjoy is completely different than last year. last year, the team went through shaq on offense, and it made a world of difference, just as it did the last month of the regular season this year and the post season thus far. to say that "as long as you score the same amount of points on offense, you're doing the same thing" is oversimplifying things. it's more of HOW you play, not how many points you put in the stat book. offense fuels defense. defense rarely fuels offense. if were not that way, shandn "mr. defense" andersn would be an allstar. pat riley would win championships every year. the knicks would be more than annual pretenders. these teams play hard nose defense but have little to no concept of an effective offense. i've got a question for you: what's more important? offense or defense? before you answer however, consider this: why not just play football on the court? why not field a team of anthony masons? why is philly struggling the last 25 games (.500 record)? they DID get better defensively. so what happened SamCassell? HOOP-T: correct you are. and they are my pick - from the allstar break - to make it to the finals from the east. however, they are playing better TEAM defense.
Bah! I like to argue based on statistics as well as based on personal observation. Stats are documented, unbiased facts (that one can use to say pretty much whatever they want). I personally haven't seen every single game that the Lakers, Spurs, Sixers or Bucks played all season. But I can tell you from what I have seen that defense is key. You won't always hit your shots on offense, but you can always play good D. And if you're going to say that defense does not fuel offense, you haven't seen a good fast break. It starts with solid defense, be it a defensive board or a steal or a blocked shot, and ends with 2 points the other way. ------------------ I'm about to boldly go where many men have gone before.
like i said above...defense is necessary, and is simply a matter of effort. however, i place a much higher premium on offense. why? because, like i said, anyone CAN defend, but not everyone CAN score. so, i'd much rather have the mentality of picking up offensive minded players that have shown the ability to play SOME d. and yea, defense does spark the occassional fast break. however, i'm going to guess that there are far more offensive opportunities created by a talented offensive team than by a talented defensive team, no? defense can be taught to ANYONE!!! i'd like to rid ourselves of the "DDDDD" players like shandn and look towards teaching cat, steve, motay, cato, and walt to play good TEAM d. the offense, from those guys (as long as we refine our open court game) is already there. the only defensive player we're missing, IMO, is another post defender who can consistently score with his back to the basket....
Your analysis of the Charlotte/Miami series is all wrong Verse. Defense is as big of a factor or bigger than offense in the series. Charlotte has destroyed Miami's halfcourt set. In your opinion, that's a problem w/ Miami's backcourt offense. Humbug. They can't inbound pass! Silas' crew has disected every play! It's ****ing beautiful. Who would you choose offensively? 5) Mourning or Campbell 4) Grant or Brown 3) Bowen or Mashburn 2) Jones or Wesley 1) Hardaway or Davis The Heat have a serious advantage at the 5 and the 2. PF is almost a wash, but I would have to give the advantage to Grant. Mashburn is a better SF than anything the Heat have, and if you said that you'd take Davis over Hardaway before the series you're lying. So what's happening in this series? Charlotte's defense is setting up their fastbreak opportunities. How many times did you see Wesley, Mashburn and Davis get steals and layups? How many times did you see Campbell, Brown or DC create offensive chances by shutting their players down and outlet passing? When Hawkins or Robinson came into the game, did they do anything extraordinary offensively? They played really really well, sure... but their defense was phenomenal. Their defense totally establishes their game. ------------------ women love me, fish fear me.
Defense is necessary, but will not win you a championship on its own. Just look at the NY Knicks of old and the Miami Heat of present. Offense is crucial. Look at ANY championship team of the past 15 years and I guarantee they were a more-than-capable OFFENSIVE team that was willing to play defense. If you are a player who plays defense first and little to no offense, in today’s NBA, you might as well sit on the bench or go find a new playground Ok, lets look at the champions since '89-'89 <table width="300" border="2"><tr> <td width="15%"> <div align="center">Year</div></td><td width="24%"> <div align="center">Champion</div></td><td width="25%"> <div align="center">Offense</div></td><td width="36%"> <div align="center">Defense</div></td></tr><tr><td width="15%"> 88-89</p></td><td width="24%">Detroit</td><td width="25%">16</td><td width="36%">2</td></tr><tr> <td width="15%">89-90</td><td width="24%">Detroit</td><td width="25%">19</td><td width="36%">1</td></tr><tr> <td width="15%">90-91</td><td width="24%">Chicago</td><td width="25%">7</td><td width="36%">4</td></tr><tr> <td width="15%">91-92</td><td width="24%">Chicago</td><td width="25%">5</td><td width="36%">3</td></tr><tr> <td width="15%">92-93</td><td width="24%">Chicago</td><td width="25%">13</td><td width="36%">2</td></tr><tr><td width="15%">93-94</td><td width="24%">Rockets</td><td width="25%">13</td><td width="36%">5</td></tr><tr><td width="15%">94-95</td><td width="24%">Rockets</td><td width="25%">7</td><td width="36%">13</td></tr><tr><td width="15%">95-96</td><td width="24%">Chicago</td><td width="25%">1</td><td width="36%">Tied for 2nd</td></tr><tr><td width="15%">96-97</td><td width="24%">Chicago</td><td width="25%">1</td><td width="36%">4</td></tr><tr><td width="15%">97-98</td><td width="24%">Chicago</td><td width="25%">9</td><td width="36%">3</td></tr><tr><td width="15%">98-99</td><td width="24%">Spurs</td><td width="25%">9</td><td width="36%">1</td></tr><tr><td width="15%">99-00</td><td width="24%">LA Lakers</td><td width="25%">6</td><td width="36%">5</td></tr></table> every one of those teams except for the '95 Rockets was a top 5 defensive team. Several of them,however, were mediocre or worse on offense. Sorry, but the numbers say that defense wins championships. What those numbers suggest, is that if your not a top 5 defensive team, then your probably not going to win a title. [This message has been edited by aelliott (edited April 24, 2001).] [This message has been edited by aelliott (edited April 24, 2001).]
I think I smell something burning... oooooh byyyuuurn, court adjooourrned. haha. ------------------ women love me, fish fear me.
Good teams get back on transition, no special skill required. SA can do it, Langhi can do it. Just heart with a little bit of athletism. Personel observation, with no stats to back it up. One of the problems that afflicted the lakers sometimes early this year was they took too many shots from the perimeter. This turned into long rebounds that the opposing team pushed up the court. Is this poor defense in that they weren't getting back, poor offense in that they missed the shot, or just a poor decision in taking the shot without backup? ------------------
I think the Charlotte-Miami series speaks more to the fact that Miami's starting 5 in the playoffs isn't at all who they were for the majority of the season than any offense vs. defense debate. They're pretty much a completely different team who hasn't had the luxury of an entire season to jell together. Too bad, 'cause I kinda hoped Miami would do well. Personally, I think defense is more important than offense. But I have no problem with anyone who thinks otherwise. As far as the Lakers early woes, it was really a lack of defensive intensity. Which may or may not have been brought about due to squibbling over who gets to take more shots. That's my story, and I'm stickin to it. ------------------ Founding Father of the Refs Suck Club
To quote Calvin Murphy: "It started from the defensive end, Bill..." ------------------ "Oh No..." -Bill Walton in 97 just before Stockton's buzzer beater
I'm almost out the door at work. Just wanted to quickly address this misconception. Not every player can or will play good D if only they are taught to. Defense is a mindset, it is a commitment, it is a dedication every single play. Not every player will make that commitment. It is also instinctual: Cato has the body, but he sure as heck doesn't have the instincts to consistantly play good post D. Defense also involves athletic ability: Dikembe Mutombo has a specific skill set that makes him a good defensive player. Walt Williams doesn't have the lateral quickness to become a great defender at small forward, no matter how well Rudy "teaches" him. C'mon - these guys have been playing basketball their whole lives. All of a sudden the coaching staff is going to teach them to become good defenders? It ain't that easy. ------------------ I'm about to boldly go where many men have gone before.
The team that wins the championship (at least since 1980) always has the best player in the league on it (at least 85% of the time). That's as deep as it needs to get. ------------------ "I'll be gettin real drunk and making fun of everybody"
I will start with this statement: Defense is not unimportant, however, it IS overrated. Apply that statement to whatever rocket you want to. Many people here have this notion that the rockets have enough scorers with cuttino and francis. They have said that we need to surround them with good defenders at the 3 spot (shandn “no O” andersn” and the four spot (ben “I rebound but can’t shoot for sh#t” wallace) and the five spot (antonio/dale davis). Let me say this now. If we lose motay and field a starting lineup of: Steve Francis: PG Cuttino Mobley: SG Shandon Anderson: SF Ben Wallace: PF Antonio Davis: C We will be a worse team than this past year. Allow me to explain. While we may have a tough rebounding team with a couple of high scoring guards, we will be a WORSE team overall. While we may have a better defensive club than this past year, we will be a WORSE team overall. Defense does not win championships…offense does. You don’t agree? Let’s take a look and see… SA Spurs: Great interior defense, yes. However, they have a team capable of putting large numbers on the boards. Duncan you can count on for 20/10. Dave 15/10. Derrick Anderson, Danny Ferry, Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels, Steve Kerr, and Sean Elliot all shoot very well, despite not being the best of defenders (save for Sean). Why are Tim and Dave so effective? Because they have a plethora of scorers and shooters surrounding them. Why are the Spurs so good? Yes, they play good defense in stretches. More importantly, IMO, is that they play outstanding offense. They get you so worried about stopping Tim and Dave that you end up in foul trouble, or not concentrating on your end of the court. LA Lakers: Truly a powerhouse – NOW. Notice how much the Lakers have struggled this year with chemistry. What was the problem? Was Kobe complaining about defense? Or was it offense? Was Shaq complaining about defense? Or was it the number of shots he gets? In essence, where were their problems, on offense or on defense? I say their problem were on offense – what with Kobe wanting an inordinate amount of shots. Once they found an offensive balance, they have been all but unbeatable. Good defenders on their team? Let’s see: Ho Grant – nope. Robert Horry – used to be, but not really now (esp. in a 1 on 1). Derek Fisher – nope. Rick Fox – hacker. Isaiah Ri…never mind. Penberthy – tee hee. Harper – used to be. Shaq? Shaq? Please. Shoot at will. I refuse to come out and guard you. In fact, the only good defender they really have is Kobe Bryant. Milwaukee Bucks: What the Bucks have is a tremendous offensive machine. 6 players capable of lighting the scoreboard. Lindsey Hunter, Sam Cassell, Glenn Robinson, Tim Thomas, Ray Allen, even Jason Caffey occasionally. How many good defenders are on that team? I challenge anyone to name more than one (Ervin Johnson). Yet they were undefeated against the top 4 teams in the Western Conference. Now let’s look at some of the defensive juggernauts of the NBA: Philadelphia 76ers: Hmm, Allen Iverson and a bunch of rebounders and defenders. This team is what many have desired for the Rockets to be patterned after, with Cat and Steve being the “Iversons” of our team. If we do that, we’ll be out in the 1st or 2nd round, just like Philly will be. Simply put, if Allen Iverson does not score 30+, they have little to no chance of winning. Those defenders? Oh, try and get them to win a game with JUST defense. Miami Heat: Pat Riley, what are you thinking? If anyone has watched Charlotte completely dismantle the Heat the past few games, you’ll understand my point. You cannot stop an effective offensive team. It’s like trying to shut down Allen Iverson. You can’t do it. All you can do is try to contain him. But a TEAM of offensive players who are willing to play some defense? Give it up. Game, set, match. Zo? In summary, guys, it is MUCH MORE important to have offensive players that can play some defense than defensive players that can play some offense. It is for that reason that I cannot stand Shandn Andersn as a starter. It is for that reason that I clamor for a Richard Jefferson or Jason Richardson. It is for that reason that I like Mo Taylor. It is for that reason that I loved Hakeem in his prime. What are we missing right now? IMO, we need another Cuttino Mobley off the bench. We need a back-to-the-basket scorer at the starting center position. Give me those two things and we’re a 3rd or 4th seed in the West. Defense is necessary, but will not win you a championship on its own. Just look at the NY Knicks of old and the Miami Heat of present. Offense is crucial. Look at ANY championship team of the past 15 years and I guarantee they were a more-than-capable OFFENSIVE team that was willing to play defense. If you are a player who plays defense first and little to no offense, in today’s NBA, you might as well sit on the bench or go find a new playground. ------------------ Lt. Roastabotch reporting for duty!
