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Decline and Fall?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by rimrocker, Dec 6, 2010.

  1. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Interesting (and long) piece in Salon. Part 1...
     
  2. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Part II...

     
  3. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Part III...

     
  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Why assume a linear projection? I stopped reading at the first bolded portion of the first post.
     
  5. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Part IV...
     
  6. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    On that topic, it seems like it would be easy. The author provides several data points that suggest we are losing our dominance in science and technology. Since we have done nothing as of today to counteract that trend, is it not the height of rationality to think it will continue? If anything, by electing a bunch of people in the last election that approach science as either inconvenient to their policy desires or at worst, something to not be concerned with at all, we have accelerated the trend and increased the likelihood that it will not be reversed.

    That's not to say an American won't come up with the next great thing, but it bodes ill for the long term.
     
  7. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    /tin foil hat on

    The California missile sighting just the other day was actually a distraction to deter us from the announcement between Russia and China that they will both pursue measures to wane from the US dollar...and a secret US submarine cut undersea cables to prevent the Iranian oil bourse last year, and gobal warming is a conspiracy funded by the top multinational corporations to ammend US laws in their favor so they can keep a competitive edge.

    /tin foil hat off
     
  8. Qball

    Qball Member

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    This is the single most significant factor. We seem hell bent on sacrificing the long-term benefits of education for a mirage of short-term gains. We're so greedy.

    Teachers salaries should be in the $75k range starting. This is the only way to attract real teachers who have education degrees and competence to deal with students. Instead of working/wasting away their talents maximizing shareholder value for some scumbag corporation, they can really mold America's future. Real teachers as in the ones who have the passion for it but ignore the calling due to the cost of living a comfortable life. Not some mediocre college student who settled for a teaching position because they couldn't find a job in their respective field. For $40k, you're going to get a bag of peanuts.
     
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  9. basso

    basso Member
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    that's great, but tl;dr

    <object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z0GFRcFm-aY&hl=en_US&feature=player_detailpage&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z0GFRcFm-aY&hl=en_US&feature=player_detailpage&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>
     
  10. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Good post, although tens of thousands of excellent teachers do work for those rediculously small salaries, many who have advanced degrees. Why? Because they love teaching and want to make a difference. Not because, as some would say, they can't do anything else.
     
  11. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    This is the same data point trend line that Michael Crichton presented when he wrote Rising Sun in 1992. I'm saying that extrapolating an unbroken linear ascent for these two countries is dumber than Thomas Friedman writing two books on globalization because he saw a KFC outside his limo window. decoupling hasn't happened now and it won't have happened in 2025 barring dramatic behavioral changes that will necessarily impact growth.
     
  12. Qball

    Qball Member

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    I agree but most don't fall in that category. A lot of these second-rate teachers think that teaching is really easy and end up being overwhelmed. End result is that they give it a half-ass effort and do what they can to barely pass students to next grade level. I call them "worksheet teachers". Not sure what to teach? Give them a worksheet to keep them busy for an hour. Lesson plans full of holes? Turn to page 127 and do questions 1 to 20 at the end of the chapter and keep them busy. There is no 'learning' going on.
     
  13. thadeus

    thadeus Member

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    Yes, it's impossible that America could ever be in decline.

    Don't imagine for one second that we could be making mistakes, and that these mistakes could have real repercussions instead of just political implications.

    Don't imagine that starving the government of funds could reduce the influence of government to such an extent that we no longer have an adequate representative for our interests in the world.

    Don't imagine that allowing the wealthy to write our laws and formulate the national agenda will lead to the wholesale destruction of our middle class, to a country that is 90% pauper, 9% military, and 1% royalty.

    Don't imagine any of this ... because we're special. We're different. All the other empires that have fallen did so simply because they weren't us. We're the exception.

    No matter how stupid and short-sighted we are, no matter how much we sacrifice our own well-being for partisan political goals, no matter how much we willingly enable our own exploitation, no matter how often we bury our heads in the sand ... The United States of America will last forever.
     
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  14. glynch

    glynch Member

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    40% of the Fortune 500 make more than 50% of their profits overseas. It will soon be 60%. They can give a crap about America.

    These corporations own the politicians. Is it any wonder we are in decline?

    So it isn't strictly linear. A simple enough point to argue. Does this show we aren't in a steep decline?
     
  15. Qball

    Qball Member

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    You know it's too easy to blame businesses. The free market system is what we believe in and our govt style caters to it and vice versa. Corporations are going to do whatever they can to make profits (hopefully within ethical bounds). No company wants to pay the labor costs of United States or Europe.

    There is a simulation game that is part of a business course I was taking. We sell shoes, 9 companies total. Each company started off with a factory in North America and one in Asia. Business decisions were made each week (which equaled 1 year for the business). At the end of 10 years, only 1 company kept their factory in N. America. The rest sold the factory capacity off to the 'game' within the first 5 years. Our grade depended on our profitability. Closing the factory was essential to me getting a good grade. With the cash from the sale, we opened a factory in South America.

    In the same way, real corporations could care less about the future a country. They're here to make a profit. It's not that they don't give a crap about America, they don't give a crap about any country. They'll go wherever profits can be maximized. With the recent technological advances, especially the internet and telecommunications, the effect has been accelerated.

    This was a simplified comparison but applicable nonetheless.

    Want United States to keep these companies onshore? Accept wages and living standard at half of what it is right now. And no way in hell are any Americans ready to do something like that.
     
  16. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    I spoke too soon. This is a gross exaggeration and a slap in the face to the vast majority of hard working, underpaid American public school teachers.
     
  17. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    The US does not have a free market. That's propaganda.

    History shows that such hopes are wistful at best, absolutely stupid at worst.

    I'd argue it's happening.
     
  18. Qball

    Qball Member

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    I apologize if I've offended. But that's just how I feel. I went to Hastings High for a bit (alief district) and it was exactly how I described it. I have 3 friends in addition to my wife who are teachers atm. I hear about this on a weekly basis. They have almost no incentive (or proper training) to work like they would in commercial industry.
     
  19. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Brits have a class based society that prevents idiots and morons from taking the center spotlight.

    Our know-nothing celebration of mediocrity is far worse than any infrastructural problem or corporatist influence on our political system. It's the idea that we can do better because we've always done better, rather than through hard work and the help of our neighbors. Sacrifice today is now "collectivist". Ego centrist Randism becomes popular as a coping mechanism to ignore the looming decline in our power and prestige.

    The part that makes me sick in this recession is the fingerpointing at other people or even the government for not being "fiscally responsible" while consumer debt hovered around 3 trillion in 08.

    When voters keep petty delusions about themselves and the implicitly unmet expectations of their civil servants ("spend responsilby"...but don't raise taxes AND gimmie my meddycare!!) that too becomes self reinforcing and a one way ticket up **** creek.
     
  20. CrazyDave

    CrazyDave Member

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    We can't predict next freekin' week and this guy has the world ending on a timeline. The first paragraph denotes all the generalities that are necessary.

    I'm not saying it isn't possible, just seems a bit 'chicken little'
     

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