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D&D Coronavirus thread

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Feb 23, 2020.

  1. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    You sir are no fun.
     
  2. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    I can see how it gives SCWs a narrative that they can fit to their dogma.
     
  3. SuraGotMadHops

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    Citation 96 on the CDC's website.
     
  4. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member
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  5. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    There is no reason why people should be skeptical.

    I'm skeptical why people are so paranoid to question it. The CDC doesn't have a vested interest in lying about mask mandates.

    They don't get benefit by having people wear them unnecessarily except that it's maybe over cautious.

    It doesn't harm us to wear masks and it does help cut down on the spread and cuts down on the variants.

    The biggest way to stop the need for mask wearing is for folks to get vaccinated.

    It's not difficult. If more people get vaccinated both the spread and variants stop.

    Governments don't benefit by having more mask mandates and more Covid19. It isn't some kind of trick for people to even be skeptical about.

    There simply is no reason for them to lie about the need. That doesn't mean they are not making a mistake in some recommendations which are over cautious but not harmful.
     
  6. SuraGotMadHops

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    People are going to be skeptical when the organization giving out guidance is sloppy and inconsistent. Plain and simple. Again. I'm only saying this will create pause when it comes to NPIs, not vaccines. The vaccines work, that is also plain and simple.
     
  7. txtony

    txtony Member

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    Both, but much more likely to the unvaccinated. You want to wear mask in settings with high covid transmission for

    1) extra protection for yourself
    2) spread to vaccinated (rare), unvaccinated (100M), immunocompromised (10M), Under 12 (50M)
    3) increase R and community spread leading to potential new variant (I shouldn't say potential anymore.. we have seen regular mutation so we should expect more mutation as long as spread continue)

    In a later response to what OS posted, I clarify my position on protection for self. Quick summary below. As usual, there are still unknowns with Delta.

    I initially said 10-20% of vaccinated seems to be infected with the new Delta variant. That actually might be 30-50% from the data we are seeing in UK and Israel.

    The good news is protection against death and severe complications are still holding up well (92% for Delta vs 98% for Alpha), although there might be evidence that immunity is waning. Too early to tell but Israel data might suggest that.

    It seems 15% of infected develop long covid. We don't know yet how protective vaccination is against long covid. Probably good, but we simply don't know yet. Long covid itself can be something annoying to full blown disability.

    UK has a study that shows significant cognitive decline across the board for infected (impact both hospitalized and non-hospitalized). Breakdown is needed to see the differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated. But the risk is there.

    Given all these unknown and risks and that masking is basically free, it makes sense to me to recommend masking for high-risk areas.

    ps: I stopped masking probably 5-6 weeks ago. I started masking again 2 weeks ago.
     
    #7067 txtony, Jul 28, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
    arkoe, JuanValdez, superfob and 2 others like this.
  8. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Insider Newsletter™ 2X Diamond Member

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    Just reading how much more infectious Delta is makes me want to believe it's a lab leaked bio weapon like some people here are claiming.

    If I did believe that it was a virus designed to evolve and infect humans, wouldn't it make more sense to want to get vaccinated instead of not? It's like those movies where the antidote is right next to the poison...

    Seems like "They" are the perfect combination of diabolically smart, deliberately evil, but gosh can't seem to git anything else right.

    Stay safe and breezy...
     
  9. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    It's not so much about what I'll do -- I've always been a good little boy -- but about the implications of the public policy choices. This re-masking of the vaccinated is a topic today because of government's timidity in setting vaccination requirement policies yesterday. And just like there's outrage from libertarian types from the suggestion that they be 'forced' to take the vaccine, there's going to be resentment from the civic-minded, including me, that we have to carry other people's water. It is a recipe for some explosive politics. And I think we're seeing the new phase now with states like California and agencies like the VA mulling policies that will make living unvaccinated much harder.
     
    No Worries likes this.
  10. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Insider Newsletter™ 2X Diamond Member

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    I posted a few months ago how these public officials are clueless and more or less flying blind. I imagine it's partly from the ambivalence of health experts who haven't fully figured out covid let alone it's variants, in such a short time frame.

    Things like quarantine are seen as the cure rather than the time out it really is. I'd rather have stayed masked even with vaccinations but some Americans have a One And Done mentality where it's the reward towards working hard at a problem.

    Masks really suck in humid heat but just because you're too polite to not accuse people of being both unvaccinated and unmasked doesn't mean the virus isn't gonna do you a solid and pass them over. They're only effective when everyone does it.

    We haven't been challenged with a marathon like this, which is interesting since we just "ended" a twenty year war and are still feeling quagmire-like effects from a global financial collapse ~15 years ago.
     
  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Getting ready to be off-grid
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    FranchiseBlade likes this.
  12. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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  13. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Getting ready to be off-grid
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  14. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Insider Newsletter™ 2X Diamond Member

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    It is true.

    I would like to think they do it as a precaution that they can't track all the variants coming in here, but from a "panic/FUD" and a competence perspective, they can't outright admit it.

    I'm still spooked at my pre-teen niece and her friends catching covid w/ symptoms, so that's my bias...

    There's no doubt that everyone masking up will blunt the rate of transmission. It won't eliminate variants spreading, but it'll give these public officials more time to react.

    But obviously you can't force compliance for public safety reasons in a Western country.
     
  15. dmenacela

    dmenacela Contributing Member

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    It's neither. The vaccine is a preventive medicine, masks helps reduce the spread.

    How is this idiot in office?
     
    FranchiseBlade and Ubiquitin like this.
  16. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    smdh, imagine blindly obeying the health authorities and Big Pharma

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Getting ready to be off-grid
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    https://healthy-skeptic.com/2021/07/28/what-more-can-i-say/

    What More Can I Say (With a Brief Update from the Original)
    By Kevin Roche
    July 28, 2021Commentary
    3 Comments

    The only thing that spreads faster than CV-19 is panic about CV-19. It has been a while since I pointed this out, but you can’t spell pandemic without panic. (And what party abbreviation do those other three letters stand for? Hmmmm) (For the record, I am a free-market libertarian.) After all this time, I would like to believe that my beloved skepticism, even cynicism, had been adopted by the majority of my fellow citizens in regard to any pronouncement from our political leaders, physicians, scientists and most of all, public health experts. Could there have been a worse record of performance from this group? No.

    Now, I don’t really believe this because the consequences are too severe for all of us, but I do take more than a little pleasure watching the alleged Biden administration (who the hell is really in charge over there?) which only got elected because of the epidemic and whose handling of the epidemic is the only issue on which there has been (no more) a positive rating, flop and flounder like the beached fish in rapidly-lowering Lake Mead. Their credibility is shot and this abysmally incompetent group is setting up the Dems for an epic fail in the next few elections. Simply epic. And I will enjoy every moment. I vote that we for free move all progressives to California and New York, let anyone else in those states move for free to somewhere else, and then divorce those two states. They can keep DC too. Then the rest of us can return to sane government and policy.

    Notwithstanding my exasperation with the failure of common sense and skepticism to prevail, I will try one more time to simply list why we shouldn’t get all hysterical again and what data our supposed government experts should be providing.

    Let’s start with Delta. Contrary to the misinformation being spread by many, including the so-called experts, the research to date shows:
    1. It has a lower hospitalization and death rate.
    2. It is perhaps somewhat more transmissible.
    3. It does not result in substantially higher viral loads.
    4. Vaccines are only marginally less effective against Delta infections.
    5. It does not have a worse impact on children.
    Now let us move on to vaccine effectiveness, where we find that:
    1. People who are vaccinated can get infected, but do so at lower rates than the unvaxed.
    2. People who are vaccinated and get infected have lower viral loads than the unvaxed who become infected.
    3. People who are vaccinated and get infected are less likely to be infectious and transmit.
    4. People who are vaccinated have much lower rates of hospitalization and death than do those who are unvaccinated and get infected.
    5. The research is actually mixed as to whether vaccination or prior infection provides a stronger adaptive immune response.
    6. If you understand adaptive immunity, whether from infection or vaccination, in regard to respiratory viruses, none of the above is a surprise, e.g., the performance of flu vaccines and the difficulty in developing an RSV vaccine.
    Now what do we need, other than a complete replacement of said political leaders and experts.
    1. Provide case, hospitalization and death data by vaccination status and give us days after second dose that the case was identified in the case of “fully” vaccinated individuals. Full adaptive immunity is unlikely in 14 days, it takes weeks for memory B and T cells to be completely in place.
    2. Give us the age structure of cases, hospitalizations and deaths in the vaccinated as well as the unvaccinated.
    3. Show us at least a very representative sample of cycle numbers from supposedly positive PCR tests in both the vaxed and unvaxed cases. I am certain this will reveal much higher cycle numbers and lower viral loads in the vaxed cases.
    4. Do representative sampling of supposed positives from vaxed and unvaxed persons and attempt to culture the test swabs. I am again certain this will show much less presence of viable virus among the vaxed group.
    5. Give us complete reinfection cases among the unvaccinated, including hospital and death rates. Reinfections among the unvaxed are the equivalent of breakthrough infections in the vaxed and a direct comparison about rates and outcomes would be helpful.
    6. Stop hiding how many hospitalizations listed as CV-19 ones aren’t actually for CV-19. The state of Minnesota started doing this for breakthrough infections but it should be done for all cases, so we can compare true serious outcomes.
    Finally, come up with better and more accurate messaging on how respiratory virus vaccines should be expected to work. Stop calling them breakthrough infections; the virus isn’t breaking through some physical barrier. Give people at least a rudimentary explanation of how adaptive immunity works. Explain that adaptive immunity is weaker in older persons and those with serious health issues, so we can expect to see cases and even serious illness continue among that group. Once more, for the three millionth time, tell people this virus is not going away, we will live with it, we will adapt to it, we will have preventive and treatment measures that are effective, but it ain’t disappearing. And life is too short and too valuable to waste it in futile attempts to avoid CV-19.

    I just have to note as well, after I wrote this, that could there be worse messaging than the CDC telling vaccinated people to wear masks. Readers know that I don’t find any evidence to suggest masks play any role in limiting transmission in the community. I have summarized my reasons for that repeatedly. And what is the point in pushing, even forcing people to get vaccinated if they have to still abide by all the same futile and stupid restrictions. But at least the CDC is consistent, they have done an absolutely atrocious job of communication.

    That, that, that’s all folks!!!
     
  18. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Getting ready to be off-grid
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    CDC reversal on indoor masking prompts experts to ask, ‘Where’s the data?’

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...aaa6b2-efce-11eb-a452-4da5fe48582d_story.html

    excerpt:

    New recommendations from federal health officials this week on when vaccinated Americans should don face masks came with a startling bolt of news: People who have had their shots and become infected with the delta variant of the coronavirus can harbor large amounts of virus just like unvaccinated people. That means they could become spreaders of the disease and should return to wearing masks indoors in certain situations, including when vulnerable people are present.

    But the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention did not publish the new research. In the text of the updated masking guidance, the agency merely cited “CDC COVID-19 Response Team, unpublished data, 2021.”

    Some outside scientists have their own message: Show us the data.

    “They’re making a claim that people with delta who are vaccinated and unvaccinated have similar levels of viral load, but nobody knows what that means,” said Gregg Gonsalves, an associate professor at the Yale School of Public Health. “It’s meaningless unless we see the data.”
    more at the link

     
  19. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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  20. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    Have you considered contacts Os?
     

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