Having seen the poll in here wherein most respondents have agreed with the option ( I'm paraphrasing here) that Hakeem's recent rant about the Rockets and resigning was inspired by his being delusional, it got me thinking about how appropriate that statement is...I mean, given that both parties involved ( the Rockets management, Hakeem) are giving statements which directly contradict one another, the only options are that one of the two parties are either delusional or being economic with the truth. Yes, there are different perspectives on everything, and if the issue were wether or not Hakeem was properly utilised the last couple of years, or whether on not he suits the Rockets anymore, than I would say, ok, probably just different points of view... But the issue here is a lot more cut and dried. We're talking about accusations of misrepresentation, of intentionally trying to shift the blame for his departure onto other parties, and saying one thing to the media and one to the player...I think someone would be hard pressed to envision a scenario which would explain both positions as mutually inclusive.If anyone can, I'd be glad to hear it... Ok, so what options are left? If, and I don't think I'm going out on a limb here, we can put aside the posibility that one or the other party is having bouts of delusional episodes, we are left with the remaining possibility: either Hakeem or the Rockets are lying... Now, I'm NOT here to debate whether or not Hakeem is a class individual, or whether he should have said what he did, I'm only asking us to examine the situation objectively...who has more credibility when it comes to honesty, Hakeem or the Rockets management? Let's look at this... I have heard Hakeem questioned about being a cry-baby, about being selfish,about not being a real "leader", about having an unrealistic vision of how much he's got left, hell, I even remember his ability as a "winner" being seriously questioned years ago....and I'm not here to debate any of these issues...but can anyone remember someone other than Rockets management ever questioning Hakeem's honesty or credibility? All kinds of people, from Kenny Smith to Matt Bullard to Charles Barkley have said how honest he is, how honorable...and you can believe that as fact, or as another version of " We're just gonna give it 110 % and take it one game at a time and see what happens.." jockspeak, either way...but have you ever heard the reverse? And I don't mean that you have a friend who knows a guy who says tha Hakeem once ran over his dog, Imean have you ever heard anyone publicly question his credibility, other than Rockets management?Now I know that some of these guys arent' the nicest guys in town, but some are, and besides, can it ALWAYS be the other guy's fault? On the other hand, several former players, including some guys know to be really nice, classy gents, have come out and publicly stated that Rockets' management said one thing and did another, in public and in private...Carlos Rogers, Matt Mulloney, Otis Thorpe, Robert Horry, Hakeem Olajuwon, Scottie Pippen, and other teams' management have all publicly questiones the Rockets credibility, in terms of honesty, and there are others...Now, you can make an argument that a team's first priority is to build and protect itself, and it doesn't necessarily owe us ANY answers, let alone honest ones, and I'd say you might have a point...Teams routinely tell 3 or 4 guys that they will take them if they're still available when they're turn comes up on draft day, and obviously they can't be telling each and every one of them the truth. So I might agree that it could be, in some cases, in the team's best interests to be, er , less than candid... But that's not the point here...The question is, who should we believe...and whether you're a Hakeem fan or a Rockets fan shouldn't enter into it...That affects who you root for, not who you believe...When searching for the truth, only a fool uses his heart to sift the evidence at hand...What is more, i think it makes you abetter fan to admit the mistakes your team has made and still cheer for them than to turn a blind eye to any possible shortcomings, and constantly look at them with rose-coloured glasses. So, I ask you...in terms of which player in this situation has more credibility, based on the information I have, I'd have to believe Hakeem, as his honesty has never been called into question by anyone save Rockets management, to my knowledge, whereas that same group has been accused of being dishonest by several others...If, however, my information is incomplete, I would be happy to be shown the gaps in my knowledge...But please don't approach this question from an emotional standpoint, else there is no point. I am neither saying that the Rockets are wrong to not be completely honest about something, nor am I suggesting that I or anyone else should alter our loyalty because of it, I am merely suggesting that their public record is a lot more questionable than Hakeem's, when it comes to credibility, and if we were to evaluate this latest contention between the two, I would have to lean towards believeing the Dream...
the problem here is that both sides have a ton of credibility...but there seems little doubt to me that the Rockets made a very, very fair offer to a player way past his prime. He chose not to take it because he was offered greener pastures elsewhere...keep in mind, no one else in the NBA came close to offering him what Toronto did (remember they also offered two lottery picks for the guy just a year or so earlier). So i "side" with the Rocks on this one. They made a fair offer...what if he had taken it?? Then would we still be hearing about how the Rocks weren't really that serious when they were doleing out that money over the course of the next few seasons?? I think not.
I think it is a gray area. I think the Rockets wanted him back, but were not going to mortgage their future to get him. I mean they realize that with or without Hakeem this team was a few years away from competing. Dream forced the issue, and did not get the answer he expected, his feelings got hurt, and he walked. He is a proud man, but the Rockets don't OWE him a thing. He should have retired a Rocket, but I believe that management did the right thing in letting him go. DaDakota
Another Hakeem vs Rockets thread again. Ok, here it is. We didn't owe him anything because these pro players are compensated greatly, but if the initial offer of 4.1m would or should have been about 6mil per for 2 seasons in my opinion. This was the killer though, if we wanted to get younger and more atheletic and have a real team of the future like the clipps, nets and so forth, why did we sign a injured player in Rice and trade for another old player in willis? You'll get no complaints from the Willis deal, but getting Rice was a mistake then and now. Had they watched tapes of him from the past 2 yrs they would have known he was going down fast, and with the game supposingly getting quicker plus his contract made him not wanted by a probably every other team. Mix in the fact that walt williams is a clone of him, it greatly seems as though they played media games.
I gotta agree with the consensus opinion that we owe Hakeem nothing and he owes us nothing. This is simply a business. Nothing more and nothing less. But if I have to side with one party, I'll have to blame the Rockets on this one. Obviously money was not the issue with Hakeem, as his deal with Toronto was not that much more than what Houston offered. This was more about respect. Last season, Hakeem showed us that he still had something left to give, yet saw himself sitting on the bench in the 4th quarter. He was clearly the best 5 Houston had, yet it seemed as if he only got to play in garbage time. I dont even think that Hakeem had a problem not being the primary option. If that was the case, then he would not have gone to Vince Carter's team, where he isn't the primary option. I remember when Hakeem was accused by Charlie Thomas and Steve Patterson of faking a hamstring injury for contractual purposes. Since then, I have disdained the Rockets management and that lingers with me to this day.
Is it me or did these guys miss the point? Its not whether the contract offer was fair, it's who has more credibility in the he said/she said-ness of the breakup. I (surely this will suprise some of you) think the Rockets clearly were double dealing. Even that may be to harsh though. Any large organization is going to have situations where their public statements are not entirely consistent with their private actions. Clearly the Rockets feared a PR backlash if they just let Hakeem go, so they made a half hearted attempt to get a contract done while publicly declaring their (no doubt genuine) everlasting love for Hakeem. I think both Rudy and CD really do give a damn about Hakeem, but they care about the Rockets more (as they should) and so they knew they couldn't give him a huge contract or go back to the dump it in offense. But that doesn't mean they were that honest to the public, or to Hakeem. If you fudge the truth, whether to keep from hurting someone's feelings (Hakeem) or to prevent a backlash (public) then its still fudging the truth. Survey says.....ding....."Rockets have less credibility."
I think the Rockets did not see Hakeem playing on and wanted him to retire. Take a look at how they managed their free agents. They had deals all lined up and were ready for Hakeem to say he was retiring, clear the cap space and make the offers that they had promised. Taylor had signed on for a lower amount so he could get the bigger contract when Dream retired as they expected. And there were the others without Bird rights but expecting the contract. When Dream said he was not retiring they had to scramble to come up with an offer and Dream knew they were not serious and did not really want him there. The offer to him was initially low and only went up because the fans wanted him to stay. Management should have just come clean and said 'we want to give the young guys a chance, go out there and get what you can.'
The problem isn't that both sides have credibility. The problem is that neither side has it. Yes, the Rockets struck a more respectful and open-minded pose in public than they followed through on in private. The same is true of Hakeem. Just because one was deceptive doesn't mean the other wasn't. Those of you who think Dream is totally on the level should try to square what he's saying now, what he said and did publicly during his so-called negotiations and agonizing over whether to re-sign with the Rockets, and what he told rockHEAD (which I think was the truth).
I was wondering if anyone was going to notice...yes, let me clarify...My point here had nothing to do with right and wrong, nothing to do with good or bad contract offer, nothing to do with owing Hakeem or vice versa...my entire point was, when presented with a situation where you have two parties making diametricaly opposed statements whose differences can't be explained away by divergent perspectives, then you have to decide which party to believe. And fan loyalty shouldn't be the deciding factor when deciding the truth, credibility should. And, furthermore, credibility shouldn't be decided by loyalty based uninformed ( we all are) opinions of this particular situation, but by reviewing each party's credibility record, a record where, to my knowledge, the Rockets come up way short of Hakeem..AND I'm not even saying whether this is a bad decision on their part, just trying to arrive at a conclusion on whom to believe through objective reasoning about what we DO know, public statements about each party's honesty, than by what we don't,ie negotiations....So, I appreciate those of you who actually read what I wrote before sighing, chalking this up to another kick at the same can, and dismissing it with previously expressed opinions.
As far as credibility, Hakeem wasn't even the only one that has complained publicly about the Rockets' business practices this year. There were two other instances, one being Carlos Rogers, and the other, which seems to have been forgotten, is the New York Knicks asserting that the Rockets agreed to the Rice trade and then tried to squeeze them for more compensation after the fact. That's three instances all within the past year where the credibility of the Rocket front office has been publically questioned.
Don't you just hate it when you sell some jerk damaged goods and he comes back expecting you to adjust the price or take back the merchandise?
we will never know for sure what took place behind the scenes, but from what can be pieced together... the organization felt they were held hostage by damaged goods and Hakeem felt dissed that Rudy did not have confidence in his ability to contribute nightly. Money was not the issue at all. It all came down to Hakeem's feeling he was still a warrior and The org's feeling he was damaged goods and not a go-to-guy. Tough situation for both sides and credibility is in the eyes of the beholders. It is hard to judge it right now...gotta see how it plays out. One thing that has come up is that Rudy is not the best communicator on issues involving playing time and strategies. I recall many instances where players indicated that Rudy did not talk about their roles per se. Hakeem was upset in mid season last year because no one told him what to expect. Recall, that Hakeem and the organization called last year's mid season cat fight a miscommunication and Les stepped in to open the channels again...same thing happened during the Toronto trade proposal a couple years back. Crediblity does become tainted when one side calls another out in the media though. Hakeem did not have to shoot his mouth off. You got something to say, pick up the phone and tell 'em. no reason to diss others publicly...what is the purpose.....His reputation was intact when he left...no one was dissing him.
Remember, Olajuwon did this not just once, but twice in the past year. I'll bet he is thanking his lucky stars that we didn't find a way to send him to that great "coach who knows how to use big men" Pat Riley.
Tell me about it...I'm a Blue Jays fan...does the name Mike Sirotka come to mind? Sadly, they ruled that the "buyer beware" mantra applied....But, Will, seriously...I know you can take all the complaints about the Rockets being less than honest, and rationalize them one by one...but doesn't the fact that there are so many, and from people lile Carlos Rogers, Matt Mulloney, Hakeem, and a few other teams' front offices who are usually held to be honest ( Glen Grunwald, ex.) ...doesn't that at least make you stop and reconsider? Hey, I'm quite willing to accept the possibility that being totally honest isn't always the best policy if you're a professional sports organization, let alone one they are obligated to uphold...But, credibility is like currency when you are questioned in the future, and i seems to me that Hakeem's got more in the bank than the Rockets do...
I totally disagree, and that is part of my point...I think class and judgment became questioned when Hakeem made the decision to go public with this, NOT credibility...Credibility has to do with whether or not you tell the truth, not whether or not you say the right thing... I was disappointed that Hakeem chose to go public, and, yes, I think his reputation was more intact when he left than before he spoke out, but I don't see any link between this and his credibility, nor does the fact that he spoke out call into question the validity of his statement...That would be slightly specious reasoning, wouldn't it? The only way to make sure that what you say is believed is to say nothing?
agree with your points by definition, but in practice, credibility is tainted when someone calls out someone else when the other party does not play to that tune. Your message sometimes is overlooked when you shoot your mouth off like he did. His statements may be true, but people question his credibility along along with his judgement by the way he did it. by definitition and theory, his credibility should not be questioned here, but it is because those who generally spew like that are just not as credible as someone who choses not to air dirty laundry.
<b>Jag</b> I disagree with your courtroom statement here, Only if we are forced to pass judgement on one side or the other do we "then...have to decide which party to believe." Your "credibility" argument is odd, because I'm not trying to believe one or the other. Usually in cases like this both sides are right and wrong. The issue to me is who went public with their side of the story. Dream did. So, by definition, he created the public controversy. I'm merely passing judgement on created the public controversy--Why is that necessary? Because he is worried about his fan base? Please, then he is going about it the wrong way. My speculation is that Rudy has been butting heads with Dream ever since we got Barkley. Right or wrong (and we are not talking about right or wrong, correct?), I believe Mgmt created an executive doghouse for Dream, and always lied to the public to hide controversy...and so did Dream. I believe many of Dream's "injuries" were created by mgmt anytime they butted heads, and Rudy put him in the executive doghouse. I'm not saying this to add credibility either way...in fact, it is to say that public credibility did not really exist, imo. Both sides often lied to hide. I think they had a deal to do that a long time ago, probably pre-dating Les. Hakeem would never bash the owner again, and the Rockets would always downplay all controversy. imo, that deal to hide controversy from the public was broken by Hakeem twice. Once he apologized publicly to Rudy on a talk show, and this time he should apologize publicly to Les for calling him "disloyal." <b>Jag and TheFreak</b> Drop the Rogers' quotes or mention Shandon's and Pippen's recent ones You are really reaching with the Carlos Rogers quotes. Those are classic Bull Durham quotes meaning "no big deal." He did not say "disloyal" or "ignorant" or anything but disappointment in lack of playing time even though he had a great first year. Further, the quotes say nothing about being lied to. Who is to say Rudy wasn't forthright with him the 2nd Yr and told him not to expect many opportunities? Who is to say they didn't argue, and Rudy put him in the doghouse? Rogers looked like he was in the doghouse to me. Is that lying, or is that <b>dynamic</b> player management. Did you ever think that one of the reasons he had lack of playing time was maybe that the Rockets were trying to appease complete loyalists, like Bullard, and a 2nd yr player in Kenny, and were trying not to embarrass Cato's fragile ego? Whatever the reasons, those were classic Bull Durham quotes. You cannot compare to Dream's, certainly not without including Pippen's last quotes, and Shandon's. You are ignoring the Rice quote that Pippen said about management, the city, and Rudy..."you will love it there." The Shandon quotes on the Knicks likewise have nothing disparaging about being treated poorly. <b>heypocrasy, I say</b> You always argued that Shandon had no whining with mgmt, "Show me the quotes," you'd say. OK, despite his continued no whining quotes as a Knick, you conveniently leave him out, but push Rogers' Bull Durham quotes, now. heypocrasy at its finest.
Whatever. The Rockets must be the only people on earth that didn't know Rice was "damaged goods". Nobody was hiding anything from them.
I disagree. What's wrong with the fans knowing what the players think about the organization? I just don't get it. So people can't write books now, talking about their career? Or they can, only as long as the thoughts are all positive? Players can't do interviews anymore, without giving the same standard crap answers? I just don't understand this big call for silence. The Rockets have every right to tell their side of the story as well. Just because they never do doesn't make them right. I don't think I'm reaching at all. Here's one of his quotes: "When you're told you have a future here (Houston) and you'll be here for a long time, you believe those words, especially when it comes from people with credibility" You be the judge, but that sounds pretty harsh to me. And don't forget Scot Brooks, who said Rudy told him he'd be a Rocket (Brooks) as long as he was the coach. I'm not denying that there are many players who have good things to say about the Rockets. That's not what this thread is about, though.
TheFreak, Do you know that we had to renounce Rogers to pursue Hakeem? Rogers was around a $3m hit to our salary cap. What? Are we actually going to warn Rogers that that is our plan? Plus, do you even comprehend that mgmt made those statements 2 yrs ago before Kenny even played one minute of basketball? Before we landed Mo'! Before we moved Shandon to SF. Carlos predicated his statements with, "When I first got here." When he first got here, we needed him, and we played him. When Rogers says, "Basketball is basketball," and "no hard feelings," he knows he got beat out by two new additions in Kenny and Mo; Shandon sliding over to the 3 spot, while Bullard continued to deserve more PT. He got beat out. He knows it. <b>regarding players going public</b> I didn't mean to say players cannot talk out. My point is how does that affect credibility, when compared to other players. Regardless, my point is about this case. Don't polarize me by claiming that I'm saying no one can speak. It always seemed to me that Hakeem and mgmt had a mutual agreement not to go public. No side had public credibility. It is a very simple viewpoint to understand in line with the thread's topic. <b>What do you mean this thread isn't about Positive comments, too?</b> I don't buy your argument that this thread is only about disgruntled quotes. What? Fine, corral us into a little corner until we all have to agree, just like Socrates. Sorry, I don't buy it. Hakeem lost respect with me; Pippen restored mgmt respect; Shandon continues to reinforce it; Bullard was always respectful. Let me see, mgmt has more credibility if they don't sweet talk players and just say, "Carlos, you are probably not going to get many opportunities unless you work hard, beat out Walt/Bullard/Kenny/Mo/Shandon, and have a good attitude. If you don't, we will probably renounce you? Oh, also, we will probably renounce you anyhow to go after other free agents."
