This is something of a personal appeal. My mother has, since I left home, become a much more active Catholic than when I was a child. She raised me fairly open-minded on several issues, and it was her influence which largely ingrained in me the beliefs that I possess regarding homosexuality, feminism, etc. Ironically those are no longer views she holds, at least not as advocated to me when a child. As such, especially because a close relative of ours is gay, she and I frequently have fairly serious and sometimes heated debates about homosexuality, gay marriage, the Catholic Churh, etc. Her position is not, I should point out, one of extreme homophobia; she tends to treat homosexuality as something which needs an explanation ( abuse as a child, no positive make role model, etc,.) which I find condescending and judgemental, but beyond that she doesn't distinguish homosexuals in a negative light. All that said, one of the elements that frequently comes up in our debates is that of being a Catholic. I have a fairly comprehensive academic understanding og the RC church, but I am often made aware, when discussing it with my mother, that she feels that Catholics are subjected to a great deal of prejudice and negative stereotyping, both from non-Christians and other denominations. I have witnessed much of this myself, but have not experienced it. I know my intellectual objections with the Roman Catholic church and their positions, but I am interested in hearing about others' expereinces. If you are a Catholic, have you also experienced this kind of prejudice? In what forms? What seemed to be the core of the objection? If you have issues with the Catholic church, would you please expand on them for me? Why do they seem to be singled out, even by other Christian denominations, for particular criticism? And finally, just a general request that others write about their opinion of the Catholic Church, or Catholics as a whole...Do you see them as different from other christians, and if so, why? Do you have more/less respect for their particular faith system, and again, why? Thanks in advance. I am hoping to be able to, after hearing others debate this issue, approach my mother with a more empathetic understanding of her experience. PEACE JAG
I apologize for not responding in my "Clemency" thread, but I knew you would soon discover the circumstances and I did not want to cause further harm for Achebe. I'm a Southern Baptist so my input on this question would be too limited. I hold live and let live values -- the Good Lord will judge us in the end. So how can I presume His decisions?
My brother recently "went Catholic." He seems to have found peace with it. It's not for me, but I'm cool with it. Since he converted though, I have learned a lot about the faith, concerning dogma, the Holy Trinity, papal order, etc. Really interesting stuff. Having been raised Methodist, I had very little understanding of Catholicism growing up. Since he's new to Catholicism, he's pretty sensitive about it, and he says there's anti-Catholic stuff everywhere. Personally, I haven't noticed anything like that, but I'm not looking for it either.
Before i comment I must say that there is a faith in the church that is their saving grace. But if you were to ask me what the seems most blatant to an outsider Christian is the overwhelming idol/icon worship in the church. And Catholicism comes across as being more powerful than GOD himself. i am positive there are many good christians in the Catholic church, but i consider them all human, not OMNIPOTENT POWER-BROKERS OF GOD. the leaders just seem to not want to admit it. My 2 cents
THIS is a great idea for a thread. Unfortunately, I am too tired to give this thread its proper attention. Catholicism in America today is in complete disarray. In a minor way, Catholics are like Muslims. A small minority of their members are commiting atrocities against innocents, and the majority is remaining quiet. When masses of Muslims and Catholics are marching in the streets to right these obvious wrongs, then I will once again respect these religions.
to put my answer in perspective I was raised Catholic. I went through 12 years of Catholic school -- Catholic religious training was a daily part of my life. 1) Many Catholics are good (but slightly misled) Christians. We will see many Catholics in heaven. 2) Catholicism created it's own dogma seperate (and sometimes contradictory) to the bible a) Mary was a virgin her entire life (the bible clearly states that Jesus had brothers) b) We can do anything (besides ask God for forgiveness) to atone for our sins. Saying all the Hail Mary's in the world will not atone for our sins -- Jesus dying on the cross did that for us c) Purgatory -- if we need to atone for our sins by "waiting it out" somewhere then there most of been something imperfect about Jesus' atonement on the cross. That just doesn't make sense. Purgatory is never mentioned in the Bible. The whole issue about "praying" to Mary and the saints is another thing. Why would you pray to the servant when you can pray to the Master. Catholics --- do not take this as an attack just an observation. There are many people who I dearly love who are Catholic.
Catholic school for 12 years another 5 years at a Catholic University. I've never experienced any discrimination as a Catholic or as an ex-Catholicfor that matter. I'm aware that some Evangelicals think negatively about Catholics, but frankly many Catholics thinkg the same way about them. In history the Ku Klux Klan and the No Nothings were prejudiced against Catholics. A friend of mine says that when he was raised as an extreme fundamentalist, mostly in small town Texas that they worked him up so much that as a kid he threw a rock through a Catholic families window when the moved into the block. Except for their doctrines regarding sex, Catholiscism is much more politically liberal than the conservative Churchs that dominate talk radio, the Christian Broadcast Network etc. The Popes stands on the Iraq War, capital punishment, minimum wage, labor unions and social justice for the poor, not just allowing the poor to be subject to unregulated market forces are very different from that prevailing in at least Southern Evangelical religions.
I see what you're saying. Islam, like Christianity, is a religion built on peace and compassion. The Muslim radicals who bomb buildings are just that, radical. They don't represent Islam any more than abortion clinic bombers represent Catholicism. And I agree: it would an inspiring sight to see masses of Catholics or Muslims marching against the atrocities committed in their name. Just as it would be inspiring to see masses of Protestants marching against war and violence committed in their name.
I don't agree with people apologizing for the actions of their ancestors. I am talking about Muslim terrorism, and Catholic pedophilia. The coverup that is still occurring is astounding. I can't understand Catholics who don't express OUTRAGE toward the Pope for this horrendous affair.
I would essentially agree with this. I think it’s difficult to address the Catholic Church as a whole because, in my experience, there is as much variety in the people who call themselves Catholic as there is in any other Christian denomination. I have known some truly incredible people who have been very import to me in my faith journey, and have known some who I have seen not even a hint of the fruits of the spirit in. I have seen discrimination against Catholics from other Christians. It seems to come from the legalistic mentality that ultimately only condemns the accuser, but I have noticed it as a trend none the less.
I actually have pretty much made up my mind to change religions since this pedophilia scandal. Its amazing, that there hasn't been more internal uproar. It just confirms my opinion that the Chatholic Church has has no clue of what its all about.
I criticize Catholicism just as much as I criticize my own personal beliefs and the beliefs of other religions as well. I think something as important as personal faith deserves to be scrutinized completely if it's going to be allowed to mold one's life. I believe the basics of being Christian are: 1. Believing God is the standard by which everything is compared 2. Failing to meet His standard deserves death 3. All mankind has failed to meet His standard 4. God allowed a way to Him through Jesus so that anyone could meet His standard (I have already debated with others here about whether all 'christians' do believe these basics, so no need to discuss it here if you don't agree) Where I disagree with Catholicism is how #4 is interpreted. My interpretation is that Jesus, being both God and man, was the perfect compensation by Himself for our substandard ways. This free and easy gift of eternal life can be obtained by faith alone. Whereas Catholicism differs by requiring initial faith plus additional works to 'earn' the understanding and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice. This leads me to questions such as: Shouldn't God have the authority to make salvation as easy for me as it was for the thief on the cross next to Him during the crucifixion? How will I know if I have enough works to 'earn' salvation if Mother Theresa herself didn't even know? If I do good works for the sake of the good work and/or for the sake of my salvation, is my heart in the right place? Now I understand that even within my denomination, and among denominations, and among other religions, that misinterpretation occurs constantly (and even now). That's why I look for, and cling to, consistency in interpretation. Does the way that I or others interpret a certain passage make sense in other parts of the Bible? Is the message and theme consistent? Does it also make sense in context? I believe my interpretations do just that. The catholics I know who are serious about their beliefs are the most dedicated and faithful people I currently know. The mormans are the nicest and friendliest people I've met. And even though Christians are among the biggest hypocrites I've met, I still find that their(my) beliefs are the most doctrinally sound. (Yes, I know that's debateable.)
MacBeth, I can't imagine why anyone would think badly of the Catholic Church. Tell mom the reason Catholicism is despised by so many is because so many know the history and record of the Catholic church. Perhaps if she knew it better, she would not be so quick to kneel in supplication for some guy who ain't special at all. How anyone can take the Bible as the source and end up with anything that looks like the Catholic Church defies logic and reason. It is ridiculous to claim the Pope occupies some special position. He's a man with two balls - just like me, but I'm probably closer to God than he is because I don't kid myself about who I am in the universe. I don't claim to absolve others. I don't cover up the crimes of pedophiles, or bring unwanted children into poor families. I don't condemn homosexuals. Catholicism has earned its bad reputation and is looked down on for a reason - it is mindless adherence to a large pile of manure that have become its hallmarks. From organizational structure, to diefication of Mary, to the worshipping of idols, practically every ritual in the Catholic Church is anathema to the New Testament. Catholicism has been a force for evil in the world for at least 1600 years, and only occasionally a force for good. History knows that. I don't think all that much more highly of other religions, but Catholicism is doing more harm than good by a long shot. So is there considerable prejudice against Catholics? YES. But I don't hate them, I just hate their stupid beliefs and the actions their church does through its hierarchy, just like I hate their Islamic counterparts. 300 years ago, the Catholic Church made modern extremist Islam look mild by comparison. I would tell your mom what I tell all of those who bathe in religion: read history if you want to know about your religion, don't believe the people inside the religion because they don't know, and if they do, they ain't tellin'.
I guess you guys have been waiting for me to respond. First off this thread is a sensory overload, and I have to drive to DC to start a new job and a new life, which means I won't be posting on here half as much....and which means I damn sure don't have the time needed to do something as important as defend the dogmatic principles of my faith, which happens to have the most dogmatic principles... so I ask you not to string me up if I can't answer every question. For my background, I was raised Catholic, but I was mainly a Sunday Catholic, didn't think about it much on the other days...and then God sent me to one of the most Conservative Catholic schools in the nation (which I feel is undisputed, I was ranked number one in high school, high SAT scores, tons of activities, Varsity Basketball, AP standout scholar, and I get nothing but wait listed at every school I apply to except the one Catholic School (no Georgetown dosen't count as Catholic), which gives me a full academic ride).....consequently, the religious classes I have taken have been Understanding the Bible, Western Theological tradition, Systematic Theology I and II, Catholic Political Thought, and Philosophy of Religion.... In response to the initial question, I think the question goes for both sides. I've felt a lot of flak from other Christian denominations who call us hypocrites, and I know that in times in the past I have dealt out the same kind of persucution for those who do not understand the tenets of the superior faith, j/k . As far as all the technical questions, I advise if you don't know the technical answers that Catholics have then you might want to do a little research... I provided a link below... The central Church question resides in an issue called subsistence of the church. Vatican II illuminates that point here: Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation (9*) through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.(10*) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.(73) (11*) This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth".(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity. Just as Christ carried out the work of redemption in poverty and persecution, so the Church is called to follow the same route that it might communicate the fruits of salvation to men. Christ Jesus, "though He was by nature God . . . emptied Himself, taking the nature of a slave",(77) and "being rich, became poor"(78) for our sakes. Thus, the Church, although it needs human resources to carry out its mission, is not set up to seek earthly glory, but to proclaim, even by its own example, humility and selfsacrifice. Christ was sent by the Father "to bring good news to the poor, to heal the contrite of heart",(79) "to seek and to save what was lost".(80) Similarly, the Church encompasses with love all who are afflicted with human suffering and in the poor and afflicted sees the image of its poor and suffering Founder. It does all it can to relieve their need and in them it strives to serve Christ. While Christ, holy, innocent and undefiled(81) knew nothing of sin,(82) but came to expiate only the sins of the people,(83) the Church, embracing in its bosom sinners, at the same time holy and always in need of being purified, always follows the way of penance and renewal. The Church, "like a stranger in a foreign land, presses forward amid the persecutions of the world and the consolations of God"(14*), announcing the cross and death of the Lord until He comes."(84) By the power of the risen Lord it is given strength that it might, in patience and in love, overcome its sorrows and its challenges, both within itself and from without, and that it might reveal to the world, faithfully though darkly, the mystery of its Lord until, in the end, it will be manifested in full light. here is the full link http://www.cin.org/v2church.html ; for those who want scripture, the numbers represent the footnotes at the end and lead to the scripture that many of these points are drwan from... Now, Baptism by Desire. I have highlighted the portion in which this tenent makes itself known. Churches that have split off from the church, still have baptism by desire for Christ, for the truth and for love... sometimes I like to argue that that baptism is inexcapable...but thats a whole nother forum. Anyway, we say that other religions are good, just that they could be better, and that the fullness of the Christian Religion resides in the Catholic Church.... I'll make an analogy to the city I studied in for a semester, Rome, Italy. Now, Everyone in Rome knows that the H bus takes you from Termini directly to St. Peter's. For Catholics, we would call the H bus the Catholic bus. Other buses will get you to St. Peter's, it might just take a bit longer. However, all buses are still part of the bus System of Rome, and have the same desire to get you towards St. Peter's (because lets face it if you go to Rome, you're going to have a desire to see St. Peter's regardless of your religion, the place is that awesome) So, I hope that can help out, if I left anything out, please refer your questions to Mr. Clutch or Yetti... and don't hate the church because there has been scandal, all Catholics know that those involved seriously messed up, and we pray for them (for we believe prayer is actually stronger than action, if you don't you might want to examine your faith, and prayer works- trust me ) The scandal was not in line with the theology of the church, which is not to molest little boys and then lie about it... but don't get me started on the large portion of Catholic Bishops that are messed up in America..... ok Peace to all....
thanks for the acknowledgement and lengthy post on your beliefs I think it is important for your piousness to show.
I think it's one thing to say, "look..here's where i disagree with you." quite another to tell someone their entire belief system on the purpose of life and their entire universe is a "pile of manure." there's a modicum of respect missing there.
I grew up in a fairly forward thinking and bible based church. I never really had a lot to do with the Catholic church until recently. My wife was Catholic and when we married she decided to join me in my church. We still go to the Catholic church when we visit her parents and I've noticed a few things. I also got married in the Catholic church (we didn't do a mass, but could have since I'm a Christian, even if from another denominatin). I recognize that most Catholics are every bit as a good Christian as I am (or strive to be). Just like every other denomination of every religion in the world, there are good and bad and everything in between, so you can't blame a whole religion on the actions of a few people. Sure my inlaws are outraged by pedophiles and cover ups...but to most Catholics, that is a problem of a few Preists thousands of miles a way. It in no way affects them, so that's why they aren't marching through the streets. Anyways...I've found some things that bother me about Catholics, but there are good things too. (this only applies to my experience, it may be different to other people) Here are the positives: 1. MOST Catholics strive to do the most simple thing about being a Christian - go to Church...God command it...they do it. I know lots of Christians that just don't want to get out of bed on Sunday...I know that there are lots of Catholics that don't either, but from what I've seen, the Catholics I know strive to go to church every week. 2. From what I've seen, Catholics really do have faith. This is what I feel is most important anyways. 3. They pray. Prayer is extremely powerful, and most Catholics I know make it a point to pray about everything. I see this as positive. 4. They do good work. Most Catholics I know either give or volunteer for things directly or through their church. they have community centers, schools, charities. they really help people. 5. They educate. Catholics tend to put high value on education. they educate their children. This can be seen in the MANY Catholic schools and learning centers. 6. Whether you agree with thier methods of beliefs, they REALLY do want to help you find God. It might be their way or the highway, but they really care about you and your well being. (physical and spiritual well being). 7. They heal. Catholic supprted hospitals can be the best in the world. They are such a big organization, some times they are the ONLY health care in poor or undeveloped parts of the world. There are others, but this list is getting long. Here are some of the problems I have and why I don't think I could actually be a Catholic myself: 1. They exclude. If you are another denomination, they tell you that they believe you are a Christian on one hand, then deny you communion and membership on the other. 2. They pray to people other than God or Jesus. 3. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (the book that sets forth their beliefs) is actually thicker than a Bible. I like churches that if you ask what they believe, they open up a bible to explain, not a seperate book.] 4. In the Catechism, the section on praying to Mary is actually longer than the section about praying to Jesus. 5. Memorized prayers. I like prayers from the heart. I think the Lord would recognize a prayer if you really mean it, more than if you are just reciting it. 6. Purgatory. This is just made up, nothing in the Bible about it. there is one part of the Bible than mentions a purifying fire for heaven, but it has nothing to do with the interpretation that Catholics have for Purgatory. Its almost like saying that Jesus wasn't good enough. 7. The Vatican. Its a government that makes up church law by Men. I don't care what the Council of Trent had to say, I care about what Jesus and God had to say. 8. Unmarried Priests. I believe its Timothy 1 (could be wrong) that says that leaders and elders in churhes should be married men with children. How can a man lead a church that has no lead a family? 9. Excommunication. How dare men excommunicate other men from worshipping God. That is God's job, not man's. If God says all sinners can be saved, how can somebody be excummunicated for sinning. 10. And finally. The actual Church service. I've been to lots with my wife and her family, and the church service is all ceremony and hardly any teaching. I like a church that not only lets you worship God, but educates you about God as well. I have nothing against Catholics. I look forward to hanging out with Catholics if I am able to go to heaven. I just don't think I could be one.
