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Conservative Case for Drug Legalization: mar1juana

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by GladiatoRowdy, Jul 5, 2005.

  1. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    I just wanted to point out the concluding sentence for the crowd that crows "just don't do it if it isn't illegal."

    When laws breed disrespect from the normally law abiding, then society begins to crumble around the edges.
    __________________________________________________________________

    When Bill Buckley came out for Drug legalization and declared the “drug war” a failure, the issue of drug legalization ceased to be a left-right issue. Mr. Buckley wrote, “So what has the drug war done? It has made a mockery of an anti-drug law that is simply ignored by millions; it has induced violent felonies in pursuit of drug profits; and it is self-evidently powerless to do anything about the recent increase in mar1juana use by reckless adolescents.”

    Mr. Buckley makes the conservative case against the drug war by evaluating “The practicality of a legal constriction, as for instance, what those states ought to do whose statute books continue to outlaw sodomy, which interdiction is unenforceable, making the law nothing more than print on paper.” He added, “I came to the conclusion that the drug war was not working, and that it would not work absent a change in the structure of the civil rights to which we cling as a valuable part of our patrimony.” We need to calculate the cost to society by outlawing drugs and weigh it against its legalization.

    The active ingredient in mar1juana is legal and marketed as Marinol, an effective anti-emetic agent and weight gain enhancer. When many individuals pushed for the use of mar1juana for medical use, it was based on the sound science done with Marinol and as well as personal experiences. Most people who have smoked mar1juana do report an increase in appetite and many cancer patients have found the illegal substance useful in reducing the nausea and vomiting that accompanies chemotherapy.

    Nearly 70 million people over 12 years old have experimented with mar1juana or hashish at least once in their lives and 5% are “current users. That represents nearly 15 million Americans and most users range between 18 and 25. (Usage plummets after the age of 34; when children, mortgages, and jobs blunt the appeal of bonging.) As National Review editor Richard Lowery comments, “it makes little sense to send people to jail for using a drug that, in terms of its harmfulness, should be categorized somewhere between alcohol and tobacco on one hand and caffeine on the other hand.” Nearly 700,000 Americans are arrested for mar1juana offenses and close to 80% of these arrests are for possession. Like alcohol prohibition in the 1920’s, mar1juana prohibition is becoming unenforceable and reducing respect for the law.

    Many members of the Baby boomer era and their children have used mar1juana and here is an irony. During the Prohibition period of the 20’s when alcohol was illegal, mar1juana was legal. Alcohol prohibition was a progressive cause due to the significant abuse seen with alcohol at the turn of the century. The biggest supporters of Prohibition were women, who did not like to see the family income going to alcohol. Alcohol was blamed for poverty, crime, insanity and degeneracy. Prohibit alcohol and you will empty the jails and poorhouses. No sooner than prohibition was passed, Americans regretted the noble experience.

    The biggest winner in Prohibition was organized crime as the mob controlled all aspects of the alcohol business. The funds from alcohol allowed the Mafia to grow from their individual city enclaves to a national organization with its tentacles in every corner of American society from loan sharking to robbing union pension funds. Another side effect was the change in drinking habits. Historian Samuel Morrison noted, “Since beer and wine did not pay bootleggers like strong liquor, the country’s drinking habits were changed from one to the other.” College age adults, instead of drinking beer, enjoyed bathtub gin and other hard liquor. Drug prohibition has produced similar results in strengthening criminal elements while seeing a shift to the use of harder drugs.

    The one positive aspect of prohibition was that Americans drank less compared to the period before Prohibition. The risk of legalization is an increased use of drugs if legally available. Like tobacco and alcohol, mar1juana and other drug use could increase to a certain level before leveling off. Today, there are more ex-smokers than smokers and overall, the percentage of Americans who smoke has declined over the past decade. When the side effects of alcohol and tobacco became evident, Society as a whole found answers to restrict the use of these agents. Making a product legal does not mean Society sanctions it. Many communities have passed no smoking laws in various public buildings and increasing policing on drunk driving has encouraged many individuals to reduce their drinking and health risk have induced many to quit smoking. Education of the dangers of the abuse of agents has been significant in the reduction of drinking and smoking cigarettes.

    While I believe that legalization will increase drug usage, others disagree. Jini Wallace of Christians for Cannabis told me in an interview, “In countries and states that have made moves toward decriminalization, there has been little to no increase in use.” Ms. Wallace concludes that those individuals who use “other drugs, such as crack, cocaine, etc...will switch back to Cannabis.” She added that the lower price for legal mar1juana will allow consumers to use more cannabis and less of the more expensive harder substance. Former Governor Gary Johnson R-New Mexico also dissents from the view that legalization means increased drug use. He observed, “For starters, we shouldn't be looking at use as the benchmark. Look at Holland, where effectively drugs have been decriminalized; Holland has 60 percent of the drug use the United States has. I'm talking about mar1juana and hard drugs, kids and adults. So if you look at that, it would not suggest that use would increase”

    Drug use should not be taken lightly and we know the abuse of alcohol and nicotine has caused significant social problems. Legalization will not eliminate the social consequences of individual action. Most people do not experience problems when smoking mar1juana on a recreational basis and its prohibition remains a cultural event. But some individuals do suffer from problems associated with mar1juana. We are already using the basic chemical as a schedule III drug and the evidence on the basic chemical that it does have medicinal uses makes mar1juana more appealing. (Maybe even better, since if you smoke mar1juana, you will get a larger portion in the bloodstream quicker and bypass absorption in the gut. The latter is important since many cancer and AIDS patients have significant GI problems with the drugs that they take. Having a delivery system that is not oral gives physicians more options.)

    The drug war has strengthened organized crime and allowed international crime families as well as terrorist organizations to use the drug trade as a means to raise money. Billions of dollars reach the coffers of many criminal organizations and this money produces seed money to corrupt public officials and undermine law enforcement. This also happened during alcohol prohibition when gangsters received funding to expand their empires. Legalization of drugs would reduce cash to terrorist and criminal organizations and make it easier to police these illegal corporations.

    The conservative case for drug legalization, in particular mar1juana, is based on one premise. The cost of waging the drug war is becoming higher than actually making it legal. It does not mean that Society sanctions widespread drug use anymore than it endorses alcohol abuse. When laws breed disrespect from the normally law abiding, then society begins to crumble around the edges.

    http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/07/04/180202.php
     
  2. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    Smoking weed is a waste of time, money and ambition. It ruins lives by zapping people's motivation. I don't know how anyone can launch a campaign to promote its use. Seriously.
     
  3. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    If you believe that I "promote its use" then you need to go back to school and take some remedial reading courses.

    Smoking weed can definitely be a "waste of time, money, and ambition." It has the capacity to "ruins lives by zapping people's motivation." I would never suggest to anyone that they take up smoking mar1juana, in fact I regularly counsel young people to never use it or to stop if they have started.

    However, none of this means that it should be illegal. Regulation is the only way we will get a handle on the problems we are now experiencing with drug use and abuse in this country. Prohibition exacerbates all of the harms you mention and creates a host of problems that would not exist in a regulated market. Regulation is also the only way that we will be able to make real progress in getting it out of the hands of young people.

    Stick THAT in your pipe and smoke it.
     
  4. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    Taking it from being illegal to now being legal would promote its use. More people would use weed as a result of that policy shift. Do you disagree?
     
  5. flamingmoe

    flamingmoe Member

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    I know Andy has documented in the past the study comparing teen drug use in San Fransisco to teen drug use in Amsterdam - i believe it shows that drug use was lower in Amsterdam
     
  6. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    man, i have a hard time believing that.

    i don't have strong feelings either way on this issue. but i have a hard time believing that use will go down when you legalize it.
     
  7. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    Conservatism is a waste of time, money and ambition. It ruins lives by promoting hatred and greed. I don't know how anyone can support it with a straight face. Seriously.
     
  8. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    Maybe use will rise, maybe it will fall, and maybe it will stay steady.

    The tax revenues that will be overflowing the government's coffers will outweigh any of this.
     
  9. A-Train

    A-Train Member

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    Well, of course more people would smoke weed if it were legal. Police departments would waste a lot less money by not having to throw teenagers in jail for having a joint in their car, though...
     
  10. flamingmoe

    flamingmoe Member

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    Study: Dutch mar1juana Use Not Higher Due to Decriminalization
    Tuesday, May 4, 2004

    Decriminalizing mar1juana doesn't lead to more widespread use, according to a new study comparing the drug's users in Amsterdam and San Francisco. The study, published in the May issue of the American Journal of Public Health, flies in the face of prohibitionists who argue that relaxed laws will lead to a rampant increase in the use of mar1juana. Drug warriors, who often talk about mar1juana being a first step to the use of harder drugs, should also take note that decriminalization appears to reduce the so-called "gateway effect."

    The study compares Amsterdam and San Francisco, two politically left-leaning port cities with universities and populations of about 700,000. The authors compared the cannabis habits of users in the two cities to test the premise that punishment for cannabis use deters use and thereby benefits public health.

    Co-author Craig Reinarman, professor of sociology at the University of California, Santa Cruz, says his work shows critics of Dutch decriminalization are dead wrong about the problems they predicted.

    "In fact, we found consistently strong similarities in patterns of mar1juana use," Reinarman says, "despite vastly different national drug policies."

    Highlights of the study include:

    * The mean age at onset of use was 16.95 years in Amsterdam and 16.43 years in San Francisco
    * The mean age at which respondents began using mar1juana more than once per month was 19.11 years in Amsterdam and 18.81 years in San Francisco.
    * In both cities, users began their periods of maximum use about 2 years after they began regular use: 21.46 years in Amsterdam and 21.98 years in San Francisco.
    * About 75 percent in both cities had used cannabis less than once per week or not at all in the year before the interview.
    * Majorities of experienced users in both cities never used mar1juana daily or in large amounts even during their periods of peak use, and use declined after those peak periods.

    The Netherlands effectively decriminalized mar1juana use in 1976, and it is available for purchase in small quantities by adults in licensed coffee shops; in the United States, mar1juana use carries stiff criminal penalties, and more than 720,000 people were arrested for mar1juana offenses in 2001.

    Co-author Craig Reinarman is with the Department of Sociology, University of California, Santa Cruz, Calif. Co-authors Peter Cohen and Hendrien Kaal are with the Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO), University of Amsterdam, the Netherlands.

    Marsha Rosenbaum, director of the Safety First project of the Drug Policy Alliance, and Ira Glasser, president of the Alliance board of directors, were among those who reviewed and commented on the study prior to its publication.

    The researchers collected data from 500 people who used mar1juana 25 times or more in their lifetimes. Data collection for the study was conducted between 1994 and 1999. The study was funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) and the Dutch Ministry of Health.

    http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/05_04_04dutchdecrim.cfm
     
  11. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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    There are too many other variables at play in the Netherlands to say that since drugs are legal there and usage is lower, then if we legalized it in the US drug use would decline. The culture of the citizens is vastly different there than it is here.
     
  12. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    yeah, i understand that. i'm not arguing for or against legalization. i have no idea how it would play out. i understand the arguments on both sides. certainly, you present a good one here.

    by the way...CRAVING another reuben from kenny & ziggy's!! :)
     
  13. langal

    langal Member

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    As a conservative, I have always supported the mj legalization movement. Of course, it is largely a "waste" of time and does not promote "optimum" social behavior. If that was the only benchmark on an issue or product, the whole fashion industry would have to be outlawed too. Entertainment (such as sports) is a largely a waste of time too. So would alcohol and gambling. Bacon and donuts should also be outlawed. I would like to see the same anti-mj (not mike james) people promote a ban on tobacco.

    The laws of a free society should be about balancing personal freedoms (such as the right to hit the bong) with the ideal of societal safety or efficiency. mar1juana is one instance where I think the benefits of a ban do not make up for the curb on freedom.

    At the very least, the Federal arm should say out of it and individual states should retain the right to regulate as they see fit. I would think that local legislators would be more attuned to the whims of their constituents.
     
  14. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    Uh-oh...now you did it...you mentioned the K&Z and I haven't been since we went. I feel a deli binge coming on.....
     
  15. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    I disagree that the trend we would see is a negative one.

    More adults would probably smoke pot initially, but based on the numbers from the Netherlands, use by young people would go down (in part because of a regulated structure that allows adults to purchase and punishes only those who contribute to the delinquency of minors). In addition, we would see usage by adults level off at basically the same rates we see now in both America and Holland (thanks for reposting the article, moe. I posted it long ago, but probably wouldn't have time to find it again today).

    We would stop spending billions upon billions fighting a Quixotic battle, we would reap billions from tax receipts, and we would have hard data on the numbers of people using mar1juana rather than the WAGs we have now.

    The situation would be dramatically improved if we regulated manufacture, distribution, and sales of mar1juana. If nothing else, more people would use mar1juana instead of more dangerous drugs like cocain and heroin as a result of this policy shift. Do you disagree?
     
  16. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    This is what I advocate. States should be making these decisions and should not have to be strong-armed by the DEA.
     
  17. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    How exactly does the "culture" of the Netherlands differ so drastically that it would account for lower drug usage rates there?

    mar1juana is tolerated (not legal as you claim, but tolerated because the Dutch don't want to run afoul of the US-backed UN resolutions regarding drugs) in the Netherlands and their rates of use are the same or slightly lower, except in the case of use by minors, which is HALF what we see here. The only major difference is policy.

    I would assert that the policy difference has far more impact than the red herring of "culture."
     
  18. bnb

    bnb Member

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    Did drug use in the Netherlands go down after decriminalization...or was it always lower than in the US.

    BigTexx is right here. Too many other variables at play to draw conclusions from Moe's article.

    RMT is right too. May go up, may go down, may stay the same.

    And, of course, MadMax is right. It's time for a deli lunch.
     
  19. studogg

    studogg Member

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    sorry trader, but this is one of the biggest loads of bullsh*t i've ever read. It does not kill my ambition, nor does it zap my motivation. I bust my ass and along with some good friends we run a very time/service oriented business of tracking and analyzing data in greater metropolitan areas. We present results to presidents of companies and deal with very sensitive information. All while high as an f'n kite.

    any hardline stance one way or the other is some form of b.s.. The reality of the situation is that mar1juana effects all people in different ways. It is also no more of a "gateway" (worst term ever) drug than cigarettes or alcohol. There are certain people that can smoke and maintain, and there are certain people who can not. This is a situation that is and should be left to the individual.

    There is too much time and money being spent on the prosecution of mar1juana offenders. This same money could be spent on many different platforms.
     
    #19 studogg, Jul 5, 2005
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2005
  20. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    sorry trader, but this is one of the biggest loads of bullsh*t i've ever read.

    This succinctly capture the true essense of every TJ post.
     

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