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Comparison of Rox/Jazz Series and Lakers/Jazz Series and what it means.

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by jopatmc, May 17, 2008.

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jopatmc Member

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Interesting stats:

In our 6 game series with the Jazz, we shot 157 free throws and the Jazz shot 152 free throws.

In the Lakers 6 game series with the Jazz, the Lakers shot 231 free throws and the Jazz shot 172 free throws.

In our 6 game series with the Jazz, we committed 127 fouls and the Jazz committed 131 fouls.

In the Lakers 6 game series with the Jazz, the Lakers committed 147 fouls, and the Jazz committed 175 fouls.

The Lakers outscored the Jazz by 18 points in 6 games. The Jazz outscored the Rockets by 15 points in 6 games. That's a total point discrepancy of 33 points between us and the Lakers while playing the Jazz. When you look at the difference in number of FTs shot by the Rockets and Lakers against the Jazz, multiple that difference by say, 65%, since we shot FTs so bad, you get 48 points, more than enough to beat the Jazz and Lakers both.

I would love to see the shot data regarding these two 6 game series, but I know what I'm gonna find already. I'm gonna find out that LA took more shots in the paint and fewer shots outside the paint. It is already obvious when you look at the fact that LA made 40 of 101 3 pointers and we made 35 of 120 3 pointers.

Obviously, if Yao had been playing, we would have shot more FTs, had more points in the paint, and probably shot a better percentage from distance with more wide open looks on the kick out, and I am convinced when healthy, that right now, we are better than the Jazz and at least even with the Lakers. But everybody is gonna upgrade, you can be sure. And we can't seem to stay healthy.

In my opinion, we can draw several conclusions:

1. It's obvious when you get to the playoffs, that everybody is going to drive the ball to the rack and draw fouls. We gotta get ours too. And it's obvious without Yao, that we have only one man that can effectively drive the ball in McGrady, and really he's the only perimeter player we have that can drive and finish at a decent clip.

We really need a perimeter player that can both drive the ball to the rim effectively and shoot it from the perimeter at an effective rate (38-40%). He doesn't necessarily need to be Mike Miller lights out good from all over. But he has to have the ability to both drive, take/initiate the contact, and get the foul call and he has to have the ability to hit the spot up J, and most importantly, he should be veteran savvy enough to be able to tell when he should do which, that is when he should drive and when he should shoot it.

2. We really need a decent backup center that can give us some efficient offensive touches when Yao is out and when Yao is injured. I don't know who that is but he should be long (a legit 6'10" to 7'), he should be able to defend at least somewhat on par with Yao, at least be able to use his length as a defensive deterrant, and he should have some post moves, at least the ability to post up and hit a turnaround, and maybe a little range out to 12 feet or so.

3. Our defense is good enough. No need to tamper with it. In my opinion, that means we should not trade our defensive core, which is Battier. He is at the core of what we do defensively. If we add some length to the swing position that could possibly strengthen our defense slightly over Head/BJax. If you put another swingman alongside Battier when McGrady is out of the game, that can penetrate, finish, and shoot it, Battier's shooting percentages are going to go up over 40% from 3 again.

4. Brooks needs to develop or we need to add at least a backup point guard that can play adequately backing up Rafer. Can't go to war with BJax or the 2007 version of Brooks. He has to get better or we gotta get a solid vet in here to backup Rafer.

#1 jopatmc, May 17, 2008

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I agree with you 100%. Obviously we need a healthy Yao and Tmac as well.

#2 tanviraman, May 18, 2008
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Well done jopatmc.

#3 saleem, May 18, 2008
Shaud Member

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The comparison at this point is pretty useless but I would say the biggest difference between the two was one team was healthy and the other team was not healthy.

#4 Shaud, May 18, 2008
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Shaud said:

The comparison at this point is pretty useless but I would say the biggest difference between the two was one team was healthy and the other team was not healthy.
Click to expand...

Which team was healthy? The Lakers?

#5 ImmortalD24, May 18, 2008
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ImmortalD24 said:

Which team was healthy? The Lakers?
Click to expand...

Let me rephrase, one team was healthier then the other. Lakers still had 2 all-stars and Kobes back apparently isn't as bad as people orginally thought it was. We still don't know how good Bynum would be in the playoffs. So IMO health is the biggest difference between the two teams. Having Yao in the game changes everything when it comes to our rotation. With Yao in the game then maybe just maybe Chuck Hayes isn't in the rotation.

#6 Shaud, May 18, 2008
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Shaud said:

Let me rephrase, one team was healthier then the other. Lakers still had 2 all-stars and Kobes back apparently isn't as bad as people orginally thought it was. We still don't know how good Bynum would be in the playoffs. So IMO health is the biggest difference between the two teams. Having Yao in the game changes everything when it comes to our rotation. With Yao in the game then maybe just maybe Chuck Hayes isn't in the rotation.
Click to expand...

Bynum will have surgery on Monday, Kobe has multiple injuries(ankle, right right back, torn ligament in his pinky in his shooting hand that requires surgery), Ariza is still out of action and it's been 3months because of a broken bone in his left foot, Pau Gasol has ankle problems, Lamar Odom's shoulder is still not 100%, Chris Mihm is still out of action and he use to be our starting center, VladRad is playing with an injured wrist..

The Lakers have been more injury plague than the Rockets.

With Bynum on the court he's been our defensive anchor, there's a reason why we're a poor rebounding/defending team right now, and with Bynum on the floor that makes Pau Gasol play his natural postion.

#7 ImmortalD24, May 18, 2008

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I can't edit.

#8 ImmortalD24, May 18, 2008
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jopatmc said:

Interesting stats:

In our 6 game series with the Jazz, we shot 157 free throws and the Jazz shot 152 free throws.

In the Lakers 6 game series with the Jazz, the Lakers shot 231 free throws and the Jazz shot 172 free throws.

In our 6 game series with the Jazz, we committed 127 fouls and the Jazz committed 131 fouls.

In the Lakers 6 game series with the Jazz, the Lakers committed 147 fouls, and the Jazz committed 175 fouls.

The Lakers outscored the Jazz by 18 points in 6 games. The Jazz outscored the Rockets by 15 points in 6 games. That's a total point discrepancy of 33 points between us and the Lakers while playing the Jazz. When you look at the difference in number of FTs shot by the Rockets and Lakers against the Jazz, multiple that difference by say, 65%, since we shot FTs so bad, you get 48 points, more than enough to beat the Jazz and Lakers both.

I would love to see the shot data regarding these two 6 game series, but I know what I'm gonna find already. I'm gonna find out that LA took more shots in the paint and fewer shots outside the paint. It is already obvious when you look at the fact that LA made 40 of 101 3 pointers and we made 35 of 120 3 pointers.

Obviously, if Yao had been playing, we would have shot more FTs, had more points in the paint, and probably shot a better percentage from distance with more wide open looks on the kick out, and I am convinced when healthy, that right now, we are better than the Jazz and at least even with the Lakers. But everybody is gonna upgrade, you can be sure. And we can't seem to stay healthy.

In my opinion, we can draw several conclusions:

1. It's obvious when you get to the playoffs, that everybody is going to drive the ball to the rack and draw fouls. We gotta get ours too. And it's obvious without Yao, that we have only one man that can effectively drive the ball in McGrady, and really he's the only perimeter player we have that can drive and finish at a decent clip.

We really need a perimeter player that can both drive the ball to the rim effectively and shoot it from the perimeter at an effective rate (38-40%). He doesn't necessarily need to be Mike Miller lights out good from all over. But he has to have the ability to both drive, take/initiate the contact, and get the foul call and he has to have the ability to hit the spot up J, and most importantly, he should be veteran savvy enough to be able to tell when he should do which, that is when he should drive and when he should shoot it.

2. We really need a decent backup center that can give us some efficient offensive touches when Yao is out and when Yao is injured. I don't know who that is but he should be long (a legit 6'10" to 7'), he should be able to defend at least somewhat on par with Yao, at least be able to use his length as a defensive deterrant, and he should have some post moves, at least the ability to post up and hit a turnaround, and maybe a little range out to 12 feet or so.

3. Our defense is good enough. No need to tamper with it. In my opinion, that means we should not trade our defensive core, which is Battier. He is at the core of what we do defensively. If we add some length to the swing position that could possibly strengthen our defense slightly over Head/BJax. If you put another swingman alongside Battier when McGrady is out of the game, that can penetrate, finish, and shoot it, Battier's shooting percentages are going to go up over 40% from 3 again.

4. Brooks needs to develop or we need to add at least a backup point guard that can play adequately backing up Rafer. Can't go to war with BJax or the 2007 version of Brooks. He has to get better or we gotta get a solid vet in here to backup Rafer.
Click to expand...

no no no all that means nothing
because
According to alot of people here

we lost because out players outside of T-mac were INFERIOR to the Jazz Players
in fact
Our Players were INFERIOR to every other team in the playoffs

I don't beleive that
but
Most folx here do . . .and said so . . .

The Rockets have INFERIOR talent . . . so that is why we loss

Rocket River

#9 Rocket River, May 18, 2008
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ImmortalD24 said:

Bynum will have surgery on Monday, Kobe has multiple injuries(ankle, right right back, torn ligament in his pinky in his shooting hand that requires surgery), Ariza is still out of action and it's been 3months because of a broken bone in his left foot, Pau Gasol has ankle problems, Lamar Odom's shoulder is still not 100%, Chris Mihm is still out of action and he use to be our starting center, VladRad is playing with an injured wrist..

The Lakers have been more injury plague than the Rockets.

With Bynum on the court he's been our defensive anchor, there's a reason why we're a poor rebounding/defending team right now, and with Bynum on the floor that makes Pau Gasol play his natural postion.
Click to expand...

You can't sit here and make me believe that the Lakers have more important injuries then the Rockets do. That is just funny as hell.

#10 Shaud, May 18, 2008
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Rocket River said:

no no no all that means nothing
because
According to alot of people here

we lost because out players outside of T-mac were INFERIOR to the Jazz Players
in fact
Our Players were INFERIOR to every other team in the playoffs

I don't beleive that
but
Most folx here do . . .and said so . . .

The Rockets have INFERIOR talent . . . so that is why we loss

Rocket River
Click to expand...

I think jopatmc was saying we DO have a talent problem. IMO, the main talent problem we had was at PG, where the Rockets were 10th best in the conference (or worse). If we don't get a better starter or get MUCH MUCH better play from the backup position, the Rockets will never be a championship contender.

You could also include Yao being injured as a part of the talent problem in the playoffs.

#11 A_3PO, May 18, 2008
ImmortalD24 Member

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Shaud said:

You can't sit here and make me believe that the Lakers have more important injuries then the Rockets do. That is just funny as hell.
Click to expand...

Just because the Lakers have more talent doesn't mean they haven't been plagued with injuries.

#12 ImmortalD24, May 18, 2008
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ImmortalD24 said:

Just because the Lakers have more talent doesn't mean they haven't been plagued with injuries.
Click to expand...

If Pau had been dumped in our lap the circumstances would be different. The Pau trade is the difference maker between us and the Lakers.

#13 A_3PO, May 18, 2008

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ImmortalD24 said:

Bynum will have surgery on Monday, Kobe has multiple injuries(ankle, right right back, torn ligament in his pinky in his shooting hand that requires surgery)
Click to expand...

McGrady offers his sympathy. He knows all too well about back issues and offseason surgery
Advantage = even

Ariza is still out of action and it's been 3months because of a broken bone in his left foot, Pau Gasol has ankle problems,
Click to expand...

Steve Francis out for the season. Shane Battier played the last series on a hurt foot and just got surgery on it
Advantage = Lakers. Pau is better.

Lamar Odom's shoulder is still not 100%,
Click to expand...

Rafer Alston was out with a hamstring injury, then went on to have offseason ankle surgery.
Advantage = Lakers. Odom is better

Chris Mihm is still out of action and he use to be our starting center, VladRad is playing with an injured wrist..
Click to expand...

Carl Landry's knee wasnt 100%. Then of course Yao...
Advantage = Lakers. Yao injury more devastating

The Lakers have been more injury plague than the Rockets.

With Bynum on the court he's been our defensive anchor, there's a reason why we're a poor rebounding/defending team right now, and with Bynum on the floor that makes Pau Gasol play his natural postion.
Click to expand...

Dont have one to counter Bynum except Yao again....
Perhaps the total number of players injured make the Lakers "more" hurt. But Ariza, Mihm, and Bynum are good players but not integral pieces. To equal the loss of a Yao Ming the Lakers would need to have Gasol or Odom not playing hurt but completely out of action.

#14 Shroopy2, May 18, 2008
Last edited: May 18, 2008
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A_3PO said:

If Pau had been dumped in our lap the circumstances would be different. The Pau trade is the difference maker between us and the Lakers.
Click to expand...

Even if we had a healthy Yao Ming I'm not sure we could've beaten the Jazz this year. He's a horrible matchup for the Jazz plain and simple. Whether it's getting terrorized inside by Boozer, taken to the woodshed from behind the arc by Okur, and then rejected on the offensive side from weakside help by AK-47 or stripped by Boozer before he even goes up to shoot. Ugh, I still have nightmares from last year.

Hypothetically speaking if we had Pau Gasol and Yao Ming remained injured I think we might have faired better but we probably still would've lost. The gap between Fisher and our pg's is huge. The gap between Odom and our 2 pf's as much as I like them is big as well. The only advantage we have is at SF position with Shane Battier and there isn't just one person for him to shut down vs the Jazz so it negates that advantage.

With all that said I can't believe Lakers are doing all this with no Bynum and Ariza.

#15 Asian Sensation, May 18, 2008
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Asian Sensation said:

Even if we had a healthy Yao Ming I'm not sure we could've beaten the Jazz this year. He's a horrible matchup for the Jazz plain and simple. Whether it's getting terrorized inside by Boozer, taken to the woodshed from behind the arc by Okur, and then rejected on the offensive side from weakside help by AK-47 or stripped by Boozer before he even goes up to shoot. Ugh, I still have nightmares from last year.

Hypothetically speaking if we had Pau Gasol and Yao Ming remained injured I think we might have faired better but we probably still would've lost. The gap between Fisher and our pg's is huge. The gap between Odom and our 2 pf's as much as I like them is big as well. The only advantage we have is at SF position with Shane Battier and there isn't just one person for him to shut down vs the Jazz so it negates that advantage.

With all that said I can't believe Lakers are doing all this with no Bynum and Ariza.
Click to expand...

C'mon now. Last year we took them to 7 games and lost the decisive game very close. This season at PF, we have Scola and Landry instead of Hayes and Howard. That by itself is huge. With Yao, I have little doubt we would have beaten the Jazz. Yes, Scola is that big of an upgrade over Chuck Hayes. With Yao, would probably would have been the #1 seed in the Western Conference.

You overestimate how important Ariza was for the Lakers. They got him in a mid-season trade and he never established himself as a key player. It's likely he wouldn't even be in the playoff rotation.

No argument from me at all about PG. We are pathetic. Just having a guy like Vujacic to come off the bench and drill open shots would have made the difference.

#16 A_3PO, May 18, 2008
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A_3PO said:

C'mon now. Last year we took them to 7 games and lost the decisive game very close. This season at PF, we have Scola and Landry instead of Hayes and Howard. That by itself is huge. With Yao, I have little doubt we would have beaten the Jazz. Yes, Scola is that big of an upgrade over Chuck Hayes. With Yao, would probably would have been the #1 seed in the Western Conference.

You overestimate how important Ariza was for the Lakers. They got him in a mid-season trade and he never established himself as a key player. It's likely he wouldn't even be in the playoff rotation.

No argument from me at all about PG. We are pathetic. Just having a guy like Vujacic to come off the bench and drill open shots would have made the difference.
Click to expand...

Lets say we had Yao that still leaves us with only one of Scola or Landry in the game so Yao would still have to guard either Boozer or Okur both terrible matchups. Also don't forget I think this years Jazz team is much better than last years Jazz team even with the suckyness of Boozer in our series and against the Jazz. The emergence of Deron Williams and especially Ronnie Brewer were huge for them and the trade of Korver for Giricek is second only to the Gasol trade. So even though we took the Jazz to 7 last year and we improved our 4 spot this year the Jazz got a lot better to this year.

The ultimate point I'm making is even with a healthy Yao we need more pieces. Not just one but maybe a few. The good thing is I think we all realize that.

#17 Asian Sensation, May 18, 2008
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Rocket River said:

no no no all that means nothing
because
According to alot of people here

we lost because out players outside of T-mac were INFERIOR to the Jazz Players
in fact
Our Players were INFERIOR to every other team in the playoffs

I don't beleive that
but
Most folx here do . . .and said so . . .

The Rockets have INFERIOR talent . . . so that is why we loss

Rocket River
Click to expand...

We probably had inferior TALENT, but we had superior heart, desire and guts. But in the end we just couldn't make outside shots.

oh, the refs suck too

#18 Nelly, May 18, 2008

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Can you compare them together? I mean look, Rockets were without Yao, Rafer and with hurt T-Mac. Lakers only didn't have Bynum.

Lakers bench was making shots, Kobe got a HUGE help

#19 Jeff Who, May 19, 2008
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Did someone SERIOUSLY just say that the Lakers have more injuries than the Rockets?

REALLY?

Without our starting point for 4 games? T-Mac practially dying? Yao out for the season? Battier only playing because the team has NO ONE? Landry? Bobby Jackson? Steve Francis?

Really???????

#20 Ehsan, May 19, 2008

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