may I put something in perspective. When Clutch said there was a deal where "all Rockets fans will be dancing in the streets" back near the trading deadline, he later said the deal was SAR for Walt and 3 picks. He further said that was brought to us by Vancouver. OK...now why didn't it go through...like we are going to turn that down. One reason that definitely strikes us is there is no salary matching there. There had to be a 3rd team and/or more players involved for that deal to go down in February. deadlock "99% of the time talks amount to nothing"--Carrol Dawson Count on the fact that teams are tossing names out there. 99% of the time. Even if Oeilpere and Doc Rocket become privy to the juiciest of those, deadlock can still occur. Like once I was in a menage e trois with 2 perfect females, and we got all tangled up to where no one could move... deadlock We never consummated anything! What I think happens is that only the blockbuster part of trades become known to Oeilpere and Doc Rocket, and we get fed those. Juicy. We drool, like we are looking at a Playboy. We think about dancing in the streets. But, there is a lot of work to close these deal under the CBA rules. With all due respect to popeye and Doc and their excellent information, I cannot speculate on a word they say regarding trades, because 99% of the time, CD cannot climax the deal even when they were right about the names and teams, and so what do we end up with...blue balls.
heypee-Quit being a party pooper. (before I forget) Remember, we get to basically forget about the CBA this time, since we're under the cap. ------------------ "I think alot of people find Cato's game to be very offensive." -aelliott, comparing the offensive skills of Kelvin Cato and Michael Olowokandi
toast, Doc Rocket clearly said in his last post: 1. Walt was gone, but is staying now. 2. Doc LIKES mo t 3. read rockbox's post 4. read hottoddie's post 5. "Remember Webber", as in that is currently hot. Considering #5, why in the hell would Doc be mentioning Webber before Aug 1st, if all we were planning was a straight Free Agent signing. How can you not be pleased with the obvious point that Webber is in the middle of major talks, and Houston is involved? Maybe we get one of the trois females. Maybe we get a major draft pick out of their litter. Maybe we just get a small tip for greasing that 3-way. Looks like their are multiple positions for this 3-way, but Webber and Houston are definitely involved in 99% of the talks. What else do you guys need, to get into Carroll Dawson pants?
Yeah, but with all the talk of, "don't show your hand 'til the bidding's over" ... I'm getting the impression that Orlando's not really interested in Antonio Davis at all. Which throws the whole Webber thing into a loop as well. ------------------ Founding Father of the Refs Suck Club
NIKE...we are not under the cap, yet. oooh, but if we sign n trade Dream....What??? If we sign-n-trade Hakeem we are not renouncing him...RIGHT!!!! Which means we are not under that cap at the time of the trade. Which means we MUST take equal salary back, or the other team better damn well be able to absorb Dream's salary, or Dream takes a very low amount. Besides, what does the CBA say about delayed sign-n-trades. How can a legal Webber 3-way go down when he can't even be traded, yet. How can Dream be traded, Shandon....Mo'. Answer: THEY CANNOT BE TRADED ON DRAFT DAY, they are in the last year of their respective contracts. So, a delayed sign-n-trade under the guise of Future Considerations? Is that even legal? Now exactly how enormously complicated could that be? NIKE: you are a CBA enthusiast. Get your head out of the cryptic devil scrolls and back into the Coon facts and tell us how a sign-n-trade for Webber can go down on Draft Day. Where are you aelliott? We have enough clues. Let's go validate what we know, to see what clues we can eliminate. "99% of the time trade talks amount to nothing"--Carrol Dawson [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited June 12, 2001).]
NBA CBA Article 7, Section 8 item c A Team cannot trade any player after the NBA trade deadline occurring in the last Season of the player's Contract, or after the NBA trade deadline occurring in any Season that could be the last Season of the player's Contract based upon the exercise or non-exercise of an Option or Early Termination Option. The last year contracts do not expire by draft day.
To anyone who has read that whole thread i.e. not me, why not find out what hottoddie and rockbox have said that others have not. It shouldn't be to hard (in theory of course). IMO, the whole "air" reference is prolly true in rockbox's post. It just sounds right. Not sure about hottoddie's post. ------------------ I am an invisible man.
Quit being rude in my thread heyclutchner... ------------------ Beauty, was the allure that brought me close to you, Loneliness, was the bond that made me stick like glue, All fantastic images, they only are apparent, Promoted by desperate hope, That things are somewhere better.
Here's another big question for NIKE and aelliott, How does a 3-way with Dream work? When are we credited for being under the cap? The way I see it is that the trade is one atomic trade, we cannot use Dream in an sign-n-trade and absorb more salary than is normally allowed by the 15% rule. We are not considered under the cap, until after the trade. Thus we are not in position to help grease a 3-way that is having salary matching problems until AFTER we renounce Hakeem!! I need much help with this one. But I guarantee you, the regulars on this board have as good a chance of figuring this out as any. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited June 12, 2001).]
heypee-I feel movement surrounding Hakeem will be the first move. Either we'll resign him, or renounce him on day 1. Answer for a sign and trade on draft day? It can't. I hope no one was thinking it could. That includes trades revolving around Shandon, Hakeem, Mo, etc. However, if Dream made his intentions clear, things can always be arranged to accomodate him. Personally, I don't think we're front runners for C-Webb, and what we'll be getting is the trickle effects- guys that the team signing him need to drop to get him more money/sign and trade agreeable. I was referring to your SAR comment about salary matching. I'm fairly sure we're renouncing Hakeem day 1 (we can always sign him outright). Therefore we're under the cap. I thought we determined hottoddie was a male? Perhaps Doc and a moment of dyslexia seeing hot dottie, hence the hint. Anyhow, one of toddie's comments had to do with the freakiness, and the possibility of trading an "untouchable". Renouncing Dream gives us the most flexibility. Either renounce him, or sign him to a reasonable sum, so we can at least rid ourselves of Cato's BYC. ------------------ "I think alot of people find Cato's game to be very offensive." -aelliott, comparing the offensive skills of Kelvin Cato and Michael Olowokandi
I don't think there was reference to hottoddie's post either. And if there was, he made a couple of posts in a row, so then you hafta guess which post? And which part of which post? I prefer to leave that one untouched. ------------------ Founding Father of the Refs Suck Club
I think it depends what we sign him for. If we sign him for a normal amount, like 6 mill, we'd be under the cap if you include that 6 mill. Our cap situation would be equal to if we signed him ourselves to 6 mill. If we have space left after the amount, we can help grease things up. Remember, sign and trades don't have to go down immediately. There's a window (off the top of my head, 48 hours?). We'll be under the cap immediately, and be able to accept however many salaries we can up to the breaking point. ------------------ "I think alot of people find Cato's game to be very offensive." -aelliott, comparing the offensive skills of Kelvin Cato and Michael Olowokandi
No doubt NIKE: after a trade involving Dream, we can be under the cap and grease 3-ways. I'm asking: 1. can we unevenly swap picks on draft day for future considerations? That is, the blockbuster 3-way involving picks actually goes down after Aug 1st. Does that mean each team picks for each other, but refrains from signing them, and trades them after Aug 1st as part of a blockbuster. Can you lock people up into contracturally defined future considerations of such magnificent proportions, that you can actually get someone to trust the trois enough to actually take their clothes off in public and pick for you in the #1 spot or the #3, 4? 2. Can the sign-n-trade legally take place on draft day so that everyone in the trois actually trusts everyone else enought to take their clothes off and pick for each other. 3. Are we considered under the cap DURING a atomic sign-n-trade with Hakeem? Or would we only be under the cap AFTER such trade. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited June 12, 2001).]
partner- 1. I vaguely recall the Bender for Davis trade that didn't officially go down until later due to salary reasons. If it involved free agents (Hakeem), Is it even legal to talk to free agents at that time? Since I believe it isn't, we certainly couldn't agree to a sign and trade type of deal. on draft day. However, I think a deal involving all other parts could be made, and go down on July 15, or whenever they lift the moratorium. I think a deal would have to be made on trust, since it's illegal to talk to free agents, and they'd have to wait till Aug. 1. 2. A sign and trade would not be legal on draft day. 3. What do you mean by during? If you mean can we go above the 15% in a sign and trade, the answer is yes, of course staying within the salary cap. If the scenario of a sign and trade agreement made on draft, and consumated on July 15, if we're under the cap during the in between time, my guess would be no. Any S/T deal can not officially go down until the July Moratorium. On my understanding, no player can begin talking to other teams until July 1. Therefore, no official sign and trade agreement could be made during the draft. Teams could always draft for each other, and then trade the rights later. ------------------ "I think alot of people find Cato's game to be very offensive." -aelliott, comparing the offensive skills of Kelvin Cato and Michael Olowokandi
1. Note that the Bender trade had no risk. I'm sure Toronto was perfectly willing to keep Bender. Now, would someone use a high pick on Battier for us, when they don't want him. That is high risk believing we and ANOTHER team will actually consummate a slippery 3-way come Aug 1st. 2. If a sign-n-trade is not legal on draft day, we cannot possibly be under the cap to grease a Draft Day 3-way. Everyone MUST match salaries, with zero help from us. That really means only a simple picks for picks and salaries for salaries could go down with the Rockets. 3. "DURING"....I mean we cannot s/t dream and use cap space to grease a 3-way on the same s/t. Do you see how that severely complicates using Dream in a blockbuster? Since our main attraction in s/t's is our cap space, we don't have cap space until Dream is renounced or traded, thus why are we attractive until that happens. deadlock! ------------------------- NIKE and anyone else, Do you want to concentrate on what CAN legally go down on draft day? We may be getting WAY ahead of ourselves on most everything Doc Rocket is saying. Either that, or these rules about not trading Webber, Dream, Shandon right now...and the rules of not talking to free agents...are conveniently being ignored by Stern when major blockbusters are considered. My bet is...none of this goes down on Draft Day. It is way too complicated. Oh, except for draft pick swapping with Cato and Walt thrown in. Boy we have talked about that ad nauseum. Boring. Can someone please explain to me HOW more than picks and Cato can be involved in anything on draft day....hell, even counting future considerations via promised blockbuster s/t's. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited June 12, 2001).]
Well, I imagine if we get rid of people like Cato & the Wiz for draft picks, then we'd probably go under the cap, and then can do some of this other trading mumbo-jumbo. ------------------ Founding Father of the Refs Suck Club
toast, that can't happen, not only are you saying you can find a team far enough under the cap to absorb both Cato and Walt's salaries, but you are forgetting that Dream is a $20m hit against our cap right now. Two facts: 1. Don't forget that neither side in a trade can take on more that 15% more salary than they are trading, unless they are under the cap before the trade and do not exceed the cap after the trade. 2. There is NO WAY we are under the cap until Dream is moved or renounced. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited June 12, 2001).]
Just a little note to HP, The Rockets would sign Hakeem and renounce unwanted players. The Rockets would be under cap. The rockets then make the trade. I think a sign and trade can be spread out over a two day period. This is based on memory from reading an article on teh CBA a few years ago. ------------------
Third Fact for Joe Joe, We cannot sign Dream legally until his contract expires. That is AFTER draft day, August 1st. Again, can we be under the cap on Draft Day. I don't see it.
