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[CHRON] Separating church, state and rules for gay marriage

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by GladiatoRowdy, Dec 13, 2004.

  1. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    Separating church, state and rules for gay marriage
    WILLIAM RASPBERRY cites the wisdom of the eminent Christian apologist C.S. Lewis as a guide to reach workable agreement on gay marriage
    By WILLIAM RASPBERRY
    Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle News Services

    C.S. Lewis, the British essayist, author and Christian apologist, died 41 years ago, so he wasn't writing about same-sex marriage in America. No, his subject in his book Mere Christianity was divorce. Still, his observations might shed some light on our own "values" controversy today.

    "I should like to distinguish two things which are very often confused," he wrote. "The Christian conception of marriage is one: the other is the quite different question -- how far Christians, if they are voters or members of Parliament, ought to try to force their views of marriage on the rest of the community by embodying them in the divorce laws.

    "A great many people seem to think that if you are a Christian yourself you should try to make divorce difficult for every one. I do not think that. At least I know I should be very angry if the Mohammedans tried to prevent the rest of us from drinking wine. ...

    "There ought to be two distinct kinds of marriage: one governed by the State with rules enforced on all citizens, the other governed by the Church with rules enforced by her on her own members. The distinction ought to be quite sharp, so that a man knows which couples are married in a Christian sense and which are not."

    Religious marriage, he was saying, is a sacrament, and the state has no more business involving itself in the rules that govern it than it has in such questions as the efficacy of infant baptism, the validity of kosher certification or the number of virgins a (male) martyr might reasonably anticipate as his reward.

    But marriage isn't only sacrament. It is also the basis on which we decide who may inherit in the absence of a will, who may make life-and-death decisions for loved ones, or who is eligible for the advantages of joint tax returns. And because it has these secular implications, the state has a legitimate role in determining who is married and who isn't.

    The church has no interest in joint filings, and the state no interest in declarations of love or religious affiliation. To the one, marriage is a sacred rite; to the other, it is the sanctioning of a contractual relationship. The church may care whether he is a philanderer or she a gold-digger, or whether there's too great a gap in their ages. The state's interests run to the validity of the contract.

    And what has any of this to do with same-sex marriage? Maybe if we can get past such churchly considerations as God's will as expressed in the book of Leviticus, we can make peace with the bifurcation Lewis urged in his 1952 book: Let the church handle the sacrament, the state the contract.

    If we could get there, we might even calm down long enough to ask ourselves what would really be the risk in same-sex marriages. I mean, if our sexuality is pretty much hard-wired, how likely is it that legitimating gay or lesbian marriages would tempt straight people into homosexuality?

    On the other hand, keeping the status quo seems unlikely to turn gays or lesbians into straights. Maybe what we are principally talking about is the effect of marriage on couples who are already involved in sexual relationships. We believe it's a good thing for heterosexual couples to commit to fidelity. Do we think it's a bad thing for homosexual couples to do so?

    Ah, but many of the advocates of gay marriage want more than the sanction of the state. They also want the blessing of their religions. And that makes opponents understandably nervous. The "full faith and credit" clause of the Constitution is generally taken to mean that a marriage held valid by any state is valid in all states. One state, that is, could change everything. You see why some traditionalists wanted a constitutional amendment to keep the old definitions in place.

    I don't know where Lewis might have stood on gay marriage. For all I know, the Christian apologist might have opposed any marriage except between one man and one woman. He might have urged such a view on his church.

    But he wouldn't have urged it on the state. His fear of government intrusion into matters of faith would have kept him from doing so; his proposal for "two distinct kinds of marriage" would have made it unnecessary. In his two-tier scheme, all couples would take the contractual steps necessary for state sanction of their domestic partnership. Those who chose to -- and who could persuade their religious organizations to go along --could also obtain sacramental sanction of their religious marriages.

    And we all could live happily ever after.

    Sure.

    Raspberry is a Pulitzer Prize-winning syndicated columnist based in Washington, D.C. (willrasp@washpost.com)

    http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/outlook/2944237
     
  2. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    But don't you understand, it will change the definition of marriage. And we all know that modifying a definition is so bad that it is better to deny people their rights rather than change one small part of a definition. This is America where definitions come first and equal rights come second.
     
  3. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    that article perfectly articulates my feelings towards this issue. no church should be forced to recognize gay marriage if it is opposed to the idea, but the government should not be involved with discriminating against two of its citizens and their quest for life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.

    in the end, like medical mar1juana/decriminalization i feel that this is a state issue and should be decided by the voters in each.

    im opposed to most any measure that takes the power out of the states and gives it to the feds.

    here is a bush "flip flop" regarding gay marriage...
    BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into." [Gov. George W. Bush on Gay Marriage, Larry King Live, 2/15/00]

    ...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife." [President Bush, 2/24/04]
     
  4. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    i agree..it's a state issue. marriage is the kind of thing that's typically been left to the states.

    but that may not get you where you want, given the recent referendums on the issue around the country.

    it seems to me we have some on one side saying that there is an inherent right to gay marriage...and some on the other side saying there is a definition of marriage worthy of federal protection. ultimately, both of those approaches seem like a federal approach at this point.
     
  5. surrender

    surrender Member

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    Precisely. Churches are protected from being forced to recognize gay marriages under the 1st amendment (see, it works both ways!).

    However, I disagree that gay marriage is a state issue.

     
  6. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    surrender's got it right I think. I don't think any church should be forced to do anything and I don't think anyone's advocating that, but in terms of equal protection under the law the right to marry legally (whether you call it that or a civil union) is not a "special right," to use the religious right's old language. And denial of any right to a certain class of people is a civil rights issue. Sharpton was awesome on this in the Dem debates when he said we didn't leave the civil rights movement to the states and we shouldn't leave this to them either. Gays and lesbians should have the same rights straights do where the government's involved. Churches can discriminate all they want, but the government shouldn't.
     
  7. bnb

    bnb Member

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    Can you imagine the mess if this is left as a state issue? You're married in California, but not in Nevada? Silly!

    This really isn't a church matter at all. I know marriage is important for the church, but the concept of marriage has been extended well beyond the reach of the church long ago. And the Gov's involved because of the legal related stuff -- tax filing, inheritance, entitlement to benefits, etc. So it doesn't much matter whether you're religious or not. Atheist marry. Is the Church OK with that?

    So let the church continue its marriage ceremonies. Conducting them for who they want. And just as the Gov isn't involved in Bar Mitzvah's, Baptisms or other important Religious milestones, the fact that the Gov extends marriage rights shouldn't impact the church any.
     

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