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Chapter 6: Green & Redemption

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Mathloom, Apr 5, 2023.

  1. NewAge

    NewAge Member

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    The team should focus on improving as a team and winning games, not on the trade value of individual players.
    Landale’s trade value is only salary filler, which is what you say Green’s value is… Well, it is what it is.

    Maybe I misunderstood the context, I thought you were pushing for the team to specifically raise Green’s value to recoup somewhat the loss of a #2 pick. I am saying, just forget about the cost of acquiring Green, as painful as it is… SAC and GSW just moved on from Bagley and Wiseman, without dwelling too much on it…
     
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  2. NewAge

    NewAge Member

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    Yes 100%. But also: last two years we were out of most games early. Teams were not killings themselves on D against us and were happy to trade baskets with a 15-20 pt lead… you can put-up easy numbers in such environment. When it matters is when it matters.
     
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  3. RocketOrg

    RocketOrg Member

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    Jalen needs to understand his role on offense. Udoka expects him to play ‘team’ basketball, not jack up ill-advised 3’s and play iso ball. That’s what he learned under Silas. Now he’s expected to play within the offense, and it’s quite apparent Jalen is having a hard to adjusting. Gone are the days of being the focus of the offense.

    It’s also painfully obvious Jalen needs to get a LOT stronger to defend other guards in this league. He tends to get bullied way too often. Not to mention, the effort defensively is inconsistent. That may have been alright with Silas, but Udoka is holds his players accountable.
     
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  4. NewAge

    NewAge Member

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    Effort and tenacity are more important than physical strength on D.
    Tayshawn Prince was super skinny, yet one of the best defenders ever, key defensive cog on a championship team. Corey Brewer, too. There are other examples as well..
     
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  5. IvanLCPM

    IvanLCPM Member

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    Jalen Green just sucks at basketball.
     
  6. Tankeio

    Tankeio Member

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    I dont understand this comment. He does play within the offense. Alot of times the offense requires someone to create a shot by taking it to the basket, hitting layups, drawing hard fouls and hitting a three pointer off the dribble. The thing is he CAN'T do any of those things! He can't even hit open shots fed to him.
     
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  7. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    He needs the strength for getting to the rim as well. It's a big issue because he's better at getting to the line than he is at shooting, but he gets easily thrown off balance too often. Gets turnovers and misses semi-easy shots at the rim.

    At the moment, Jalen should be limited to:

    - When we are running FVV-Sengun, put him in the corner where he is hitting over 40% of his 3's.
    - Allow him/team to go for 1 or 2 extra steals per game and beat the other team in transition.
    - The rest of the time he has 2 choices: attack the rim fully committed to finishing strong or very wide open 3's right at the 3PT line.
    - No more long range 3's (25%) or middies/floaters (41%), eliminate as much as possible. These are things players should have to earn.
    - Other than that, just pass the ball quickly and give 100% on defense not matter how your day is going or how the last play went.
    - I don't care if your attempts are low, just do that for now.

    I think the only way to shake things up is to move him to the bench. Give him some easier reps, a more relaxed development schedule, fewer minutes. He can be an effective 6th man for us and maybe feeling like he's important to the team will have some good effect on him too. They should keep working on his fundamentals/shooting but at the moment the benefit we can get from him requires us to simplify his game and have him play easier minutes. Maybe his ego needs a kick too.
     
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  8. Reeko

    Reeko Member

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    -worst FG% of his career shooting 39.8% from the field and 32.3% from deep
    -shooting 31.9% on catch and shoot threes
    -shooting 37% from midrange
    -worst TS% of his career at 52.3%
    -free throw rate down from last year
    -AST% down from last year, but turnover rate is up
    -negative offensive win shares, negative OBPM

    team has a -2.4 net rating with him on the court, and a +5.9 net rating with him off, a +8.3 difference

    has been benched 4 or 5 times in the 4th quarter already this season
     
  9. AmenTheSuperstar

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    I would be in agreement with all of your points if Jalen had a solid basketball IQ and sound fundamentals. He would have the potential to excel as a 6th man if he showed the ability to make the necessary adjustments. But he keeps repeating the same mistakes, making it pointless to expect progress from him, regardless of his youth. The case of KPJ serves as a precedent - many of us expected that he wouldn't be able to overcome his psychological barriers. There are certain characteristics that remain static, whether we acknowledge them or not.
     
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  10. Reeko

    Reeko Member

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    it would be one thing if he was just in a shooting slump, but this is a strength issue, skill issue, and BBIQ issue

    Plus, what is the ceiling with a jumper like this?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    it’s no wonder he can’t make shots

    Jabari was bad last year, but he was mainly missing a bunch of wide open shots u know he can make so it wasn’t that worrying…he was in the lab this summer and has gotten better

    Jalen Green has gotten worse in basically all facets of the game…it’s so disappointing
     
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  11. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    At consecutive scheduled basketball.
     
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  12. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    Even if true it wouldn't matter, there have been many low IQ players with unsound fundamentals who have been successful sixth men for their team. Lou Williams comes to mind. Let's get him to Lou Williams level first.

    I don't buy the idea that Udoka could not develop him 1% and he regressed. I don't see any characteristics that would bar him from improving except stupid shot selection. They can easily work on that.

    His ego I think most importantly needs adjustment. It's the only thing I can imagine gets a player to take this many low % shots and waste the amount of opportunities he's gotten. He must think he's not bad at those things.
     
  13. gumbleton3

    gumbleton3 Member

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    Full play from today. I didn't watch the game but it seemed like he had a good patch but than was terrible other than that. That last stretch in the 4th was dog water.
     
  14. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    No, it's just that OP knows how to count to ten.
     
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  15. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Landale is a fringe player, he had one good playoff run and the Rox just fell for it........not enough data.

     
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  16. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Summarized the last 3 years.

    Very confusing player to figure out but you could easily conclude his performance......dog water.
     
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  17. HardenReturns

    HardenReturns Member

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    No, not at all.
    If a stray pussycat steps on the floor during a scrimmage, do they let it stay because now it's a Rocket?
    I'm all for taking Ol' Yeller to the back of the barn if it's good for the team.
     
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  18. HardenReturns

    HardenReturns Member

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    The time and resources for that would be better put to use in a project for world peace or ecology.
    So you accept that he has very low BBIQ and next to no fundamentals, yet you are alright with him stinking it up almost every game, all because "he may get to Lou Williams level".
    The kid's a total bust of a second pick, for God's sake!
    Just get rid of him somehow and give his position to someone who deserves it!
     
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  19. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    I don't think he's been much different this season from last when you look at the numbers.

    Shooting difference is 0.019, that's 19 thousandths.

    2 point shooting difference is 0.012, that's 12 thousandths.

    3 point shooting difference is 0.018, that's 18 thousandths.

    Efg% difference is 0.017 ....

    TS% difference is 0.018 ....


    My point is that these small margins can come up to or back down to ~0 with one or two good or bad outings.

    He hasn't changed much, if at all from the perspective of "scoring" ....


    Which brings me to another post of yours in the random trade thread - rather than clutter that thread with more Green, I'll bring it here to a dedicated thread:


    I really don't understand the expectation that he's going to suddenly do something he hasn't ever done and that's put the ball in the hole at an efficient enough rate that he's able to "run wild."

    His biggest problem is that he misses shots .... a lot of them. He's done the same thing under Silas as Udoka - Missed a high percentage of shots, many of them wide open / undefended. How / Why is a move to the bench suddenly going to make him a better shooter??

    He might get hot for a game or two then have a 5 game stretch like the current one where he's shooting .166. from distance, 1-6, 0-6, 0-5, 1-7, 2-6.


    I'd be Ok with moving him to the bench assuming it means a promotion to the starting lineup for one of the current young Rockets - but NOT if that replacement comes via trade, that just puts another body in line for minutes with Cam, Amen & Tari. In that case, Green has to go in exchange for the incoming upgrade.
    The development of those young guys is far more important than trying to salvage some value from a failed Green experiment.
     
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  20. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    His TS% is his career low, even if they are all in a similar range.

    I don't think I should have to explain that playing off the bench means easier minutes on average. The only thing that's meant to do is give him an easier 20-30 minutes off the bench. I acknowledge that you disagree that this is true, but that's a pretty universal assumption.

    My expectation is that less pressure and a longer leash will allow him to gain confidence and confidence tends to affect training positively.
     
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