Can the rockets sign a bunch of Vet minimum players to go over the cap and trade them to for someone useful and stay over the cap. For example, can we trade Camby, Brooks, Brewer, Reggie Williams, and Hedo (theoretically signed for vet minimum) for someone making 6-7 million bucks?
Yes, but (1) once you sign a free agent he cannot be traded for 3 months or until December 15, whichever is later and (2) 3-4 players (or more) for one single player trades rarely happen, because of roster spots limitations (the other team must have enough roster spots to take on all these players, even if they intend to immediately cut them following a trade) and the fact that teams realize that quality > quantity.
In theory, it is possible. However there are a few mechanisms in the CBA to prevent this from happening on a practical basis. Firstly, newly signed free agents cannot be traded for 3 months or until December 15th, whichever is later. Newly signed draft picks can be traded 30 days after signing. Secondly, NBA teams are capped at a maximum roster size of 15 during the regular season, and if receiving players in a trade would put the team over this limit, they must waive players currently on their roster first in order for the transaction to be legal. Thus, in your hypothetical trade, the receiving team, assuming they were at the limit of 15 players, would have to waive 5 of their own players first before taking on the Rockets' chaff; that's a ton of dead money for most franchises to swallow, and turning over 1/3 of your active roster 2 months into the season is a great way to anger your head coach. The Rockets for several years now have done a functionally similar salary-cap maneuver by signing players to long-term, non-guaranteed deals late in the regular season; these small deals given to such luminaries as Tim Olbrecht, James Anderson, Mike Harris, and Diamon Simpson, CAN be traded in the offseason, and because teams are allowed a roster limit of 20, the receiving team could take them on and immediately waive them, preserving their own rostered players that they ostensibly would want to keep.
So all the guys we signed in July, we can trade out before the start of the season before the 15 man roster limit comes into play. The main thing is really for salary filler for guy that we want. For instance could trade D-mo or some of our young guy with vet salary fillers for someone making 5 million. The receiving team would just release the minimum vet guys.
He's right. Read the rule. Holdovers from last years roster can be traded. I'm looking at you,Donatas Motiejunas, and you, Greg Smith.
I could be wrong, but I think rogower was AGREEING with you and reiterating that "he" (you) was right. The only players who are eligible to be traded before December 15 are the players from last season's team who did not just sign new contracts (Harden, Lin, Asik, Jones, Motiejunas, Parsons, Smith, Beverley) and Isaiah Canaan, who (as a second round draft pick) is eligible to be traded 30 days after signing his contract. So, if the goal is to make a move before December 15, you're going to have to stick to the names above. Now, ... if your goal is to make a move NEXT summer using non-guaranteed contracts signed this summer, then you may be in luck. If the Rockets keep Ronnie Brewer, Omri Casspi and/or Reggie Williams on the roster, they could combine their non-guaranteed veteran minimum contracts next summer to acquire a mid-level salaried player. For instance, after the July 2014 Moratorium, the Rockets could execute the following hypothetical trade: Ronnie Brewer ($1,310,286) Omri Casspi ($1,063,384) Reggie Williams ($1,063,384) Total: $3,437,054 (all NON-guaranteed) ($3,437,054) x 1.5 + $100k = $5,255,581 Viola! Use of multiple minimum salaried players to acquire an MLE-level salary. Hope that helps address the OP's issue.
Yes, thank you. I was agreeing with him. The sort of clever trade you have proposed only works if you keep all three guys, obvioisly (Brewer, Casspi, and Williams). Plus, these three guys are all more NBA-ready than the raw Motiejunas. And I don't see Smith playing much for the Rockets this season. I'm advocating for Motiejunas-for-a first rounder, and Smith-for-a projected high second rounder (both trades would take place before final fifteen man rosters are due). That gets you down to 17 guys. Cut Jordan Henriquez, that gets you down to 16 guys. The final cut would be either B.J. Young or Reggie Williams. If you cut Young, you stash Canaan and Covington in the d-league. If you cut Williams, you have one of Canaan, Covington, and Young on the active thirteen man roster at all times. Probably you rotate the three all season long. I say keep Young but I can see Morey keeping Williams over Young, too. It also makes sense to include Motiejunas and/or Smith with Lin or Asik in a deal that fetches you a really good PF like Ersan Ilyasova, although that sort of deal is presumably harder to pull off than a simple player-for-pick deal. Also, if you trade Smith for a pick, you seem to be planning on keeping Asik, at least through the end of this season. Smith is a free agent next summer and I don't see Houston re-signing him, so if you are determined to get something valuable for the guy, the time to do it is over the next few weeks. If you let him walk next summer, you get nothing for him. Regarding Motiejunas: I believe a lottery-protected first rounder has more value than Motiejunas. Also, if you hold on to Motiejunas, then he eats into your 2014 cap space. Finally, if he doesn't blossom this season in Houston--and on a team gunning for a title this season, I doubt he gets the opportunity--his stock is going to plummet, big time. Sell high!
I think that almost every single team in the league thinks that a lottery-protected first rounder has more value than Motiejunas; you're not going to get that kind of value for him. Keep in mind that Thomas Robinson is probably a more attractive asset in almost every single way, and the Rockets still couldn't get a future first-rounder for him. Let's remember that Motiejunas was a low first rounder who has only shown small flashes of talent, and lost PF rotation minutes to Francisco Garcia and Carlos Delfino. I'm still really high on his potential, but his value as a trade asset is quite low; you're not going to get an acceptable return, so it's best to see if he can improve. If he's a total bust, you've only lost a hypothetical first rounder, if he manages to become a rotation quality big, the Rockets could easily win 60 this year.
Again you keep up your opinion based campaign against D-Mo without regarding any actual facts. From kuku: There basically is no actual statistically significant evidence that supports TJones being better than D-Mo. 275 total minutes on the floor last season and not being present in any of the top 20 five man rotations leads to the inevitable conclusion that the guy played the majority of his minutes in odd lineups during garbage time. Do you really advocate leaving such an untested player as the default PF next season? As for a lottery pick for D-Mo? Teams have historically overvalued lottery picks. And 2014 is supposed to be a banner year for the draft. Didn't Lamb (a lottery pick), a basically unprotected Toronto pick and Martin get the Rockets Harden? And how big of a steal was that? Grand theft. Basically the sky is the limit for D-Mo offensively if he can hit 6% more of his 3 pointers. Defensively? Well most of us worried about the trash zone schemes of Euro basketball. An adjustment period of 2 years is to be expected. D-Mo is the main hope that the Rockets can grow a PF internally. Not Jones.
I was thinking more along the lines of a late first round pick rather than a mid-first rounder, so I pretty much agree with you. The basket of assets received from Portland will, in my opinion, be more valuable than a late first rounder. Regardless, Morey didn't have 2+ months to drum up a better offer. He's probably (speculation on my part here) been putting out feelers for Motiejunas for over a month now and he has nearly two more months to find a trade partner. All i can say is that there are some pretty poorly managed teams out there.
Do you actually have anything other than speculation in your arsenal? Doesn't seem like it and speculation holds no water here. If you want to talk about softball topics speculation is OK. If you want to take on hard topics like advocating trading D-Mo you had better bring something more than mere speculation to the table.
True, but RAPM does not in any way take into consideration the quality of the opposing players. Nor does it attempt to define statistically significant minutes. Therefore I assert that in this case, Jones RAPM is meaningless. And that D-Mos minutes are somewhat short of statistically significant (20% of starter minutes).
RAPM takes into account opponents. Jones played most of his minutes in the stretch run for a playoff spot instead of Motiejunas. If you think there isn't enough data for RAPM to work, all your statistical arguments would fail and the only stat that matters is that at the end of the year, the coaches trusted Jones more than Motiejunas. I like Motiejunas, but you are biased if you can't see that there isn't great statistical evidence one way or the other. The data for both players is limited.
I thought that I made it clear that I did not think the case was strong with the statement "And that D-Mos minutes are somewhat short of statistically significant (20% of starter minutes). "
