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Casey Martin Goes to the Supreme Court

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by ChenZhen, Jan 17, 2001.

  1. ChenZhen

    ChenZhen Member

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    What your take on this issue? Do you guys think that the PGA should let him play or not??

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  2. PhiSlammaJamma

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    Nope. It's a physical thing. Sports are physical. He should be able to walk the course just like every other golfer does. I feel for the guy, but sport is sport. Maybe he can use IT to get around.

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  3. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    Driving does not give him any kind of special advantage. Most golfers say they would rather walk anyway, it helps them concentrate.

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  4. Pole

    Pole Houston Rockets--Tilman Fertitta's latest mess.

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    Golf is all about consistency.

    Being able to swing the club as well on your first hole when your cold and your 18th hole when your tired as you do on your third hole after you’ve warmed up is what separates the men from the boys.

    Walking the course is certainly no aerobic workout, but it is physical exertion. Removing that from Martin’s play gives him an advantage on those later holes.

    I feel for the guy too, but if he’s physically impaired enough not to be able to play within the rules of the PGA, then he shouldn’t be playing in the PGA.


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  5. Achebe

    Achebe Member

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    Rm95,

    I don't golf; however, I'd be much better at it if I were in a little covered cart rather than walking around in all of the humid areas like Hilton Head, Kiawah, Fla.. It seems to me to be an unfair advantage.

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  6. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    I guess the question could be does allowing golf carts for all golfers take anything away from the game? I don't see where it would, so why not make it an option?

    Like I said, the majority of PGA golfers said they would rather walk than use a cart because they can concentrate better, so it's not an advantage in their minds.

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    "He was under more balls than a midget hooker."-Bobby Hill

    visit www.swirve.com, coming January 20th, the top 10 films of 2000!

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  7. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    This is a tough question that has no easy answers. The compassionate side says to go ahead and let him (as well as any other handicapped player) use a cart. The realist side says that is you can't follow the rules, tough.

    Should Sean Elliot be allowed special rules because of his kidney condition? Should Kirby Puckett have demanded different treatment due to his Glaucoma?

    Unfortunately Casey Martin is afflicted with a debilitating disease that prevents him from conforming to the established rules of golf. While allowing him to ride in a cart may not put him at an overall competitive advantage, it opens a door that the PGA would rather leave closed. The PGA's stance is not against Casey Martin, but against future cases similar to this one. What would prevent someone who breaks their foot from suing to be allowed to play in a particular tournament using a cart? What would be defined as a handicap? Some Martin supporters say that anyone who qualifies for a handicap parking sticker should be the exception. That could encompass a number of folks in the short term (sprained ankle, broken foot, heart condition, etc.). Should a blind golfer on the PGA tour be allowed to ground his club in hazard?

    It is truly an unfortunate situation.

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  8. dc sports

    dc sports Member

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    bobrek, we were typing at the same time. [​IMG] You make some excellent points.

    It's going to boil down to whether this is a reasonable accomodation. The ADA makes allowances due to an "essential job function" -- a person with a disability has to be able to do the tasks which are essential to the job. If a person can do the essential parts of the job, and the employer can make a reasonable accomodation on the parts that aren't essential, they can't discriminate.

    Martin can swing a regulation club, putt, and do the other things associated with playing the game. Unless the PGA can prove that walking is an essential part of the sport, I don't see them winning. Since they endorse particular brands of golf carts, and provide standards for their use in other golfing activities, it's going to be a hard sell.

    To answer your question, they should be able to make other basic accomodations if someone has a documented disability, and can do the essential parts of the job. They should be held to the same standards as every other employer and business. I'm not sure where temporary conditions fall (broken ankle, foot, etc.). If someone with a kidney condition requires frequent breaks for restroom/medication, but can do the other aspects of the job, they should make accomodation. Someone who is blind (can't line themselves up with the hole), or couldn't swing the club due to a heart condition, can't perform the essential parts of the job, so they shouldn't play.

    I'm sure the PGA would rather not deal with other similar issues, but the spirit and letter of the law are pretty clear -- the preferences of the employer don't matter. They can't discriminate because of a disability.

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  9. RocketsPimp

    RocketsPimp Member

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    Who cares?!! He hasn't won any more or less when he has used the cart. The PGA is allowing this to go way too far.

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  10. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

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    That is really a great point. Let him use the cart and see if he wins. My guess is that he won't.

    The problem here is exactly what dc pointed out. Walking is NOT the sport of golf. Hitting the ball IS. Because different courses have different rules and the PGA even has different tournament rules, this should not be an issue.

    Frankly, the PGA is being pretty wussy about this anyway. Anyone whining about using a golf cart as an advantage for a sport where walking is the most strenuous activity should be ashamed of themselves.

    I mean, what is the worst thing they could say?...

    While we have to endure the shame of corns or bunions, he'll be riding around in a velvet-line limo.

    [​IMG]

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  11. MoonBus

    MoonBus Member

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    If the only thing that the PGA and other golfers are worried about is the "unfair advantage", would this even it out:
    1) Make the carts topless, so that he gets the elements just like any other golfers.
    2) Do not allow the carts to go faster than 3 miles per hour. Now he doesn't get to the hole any faster than other golfers.
    3) Make him do twists or lift dumbbells while he sits in the car. He is now getting that "excercise" that other golfers are getting by walking. [​IMG]

    No, the tournaments do not need to provide such a cart. PGA can tell Martin that if he wants to play he has to supply his own vehicle. I am quite sure there are companies out there, who wants to get their name in the headlines, that are more than willing to provide such a cart to Martin.

    Now is that fair enough?
     
  12. PhiSlammaJamma

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    Walking 18 to 36 holes is not easy. Especially if you carry your own bags, which some players do. You get very tired by the end of the day. Your feet do hurt. Their is a physical element to the game. Why do you think Duval lost like 50 pounds this year. He got in shape for a reason. The better your physical condition the better you may play. Just like any sport. Walking is an olympic sport isn't it?

    At any rate, I think it will be an uphill battle for this kid. Leagues are monoploies, that sometimes draft players, and that disregard a large number of typical regulations. They are outside the domain of your normal legal parameters in a large number of scenarios. I don't see why this would be any different.


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  13. ChenZhen

    ChenZhen Member

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    I'd have to start off by saying I REALLY REALLY feel for Casey and what he has overcame to get to this point.

    BUT this is asking to change the fundamental rule of the Pga tour here... this is something that it required by all its players, its not making the rule up just for him or making anything up to stop him from playing. HE is trying to make the PGA change for himself.

    It would be like asking the rim to be lowered 2 feet because mugsy bouges is shorter than shaq's Pen*s, to allow him and other shorter people the ability to dunk. you can't change the rules and regulations of a sport for one INDIVUDUAL for whatever reason.

    [This message has been edited by ChenZhen (edited January 17, 2001).]
     
  14. Puedlfor

    Puedlfor Member

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    I'm sorry, I don't see how this is affecting a fundamental principle of golf. When people talk about Tiger Woods being a great golfer, they don't talk about his stunning walking ability.

    Any sport you can play in slacks, and not suffer any detriment because of it, is not a sport that is based upon vigorous movements of the leg.

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  15. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    I have played for over 30 years, and much of that in Houston in the summer. No one can tell me that riding a cart (with its cooling 'breeze') for 5 hours in the heat and humidity is the same as walking the 5 or 6 miles (then repeating this 3 more days).

    BTW, how many calories are burned by a 200 lb man walking 20 miles?



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  16. ChenZhen

    ChenZhen Member

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    When you say that above, you are implying that playing golf is the same, whether walking or driving a cart. You have obviously not played all 18 holes of golf before and I'm NOT talking about putt-putt. Walking makes a bigger difference in your mental and physical performance in golf than you think.

    Each hole is about FOUR FOOTBALL FIELDS on average i'd say. Imagine yourself teeing up a baseball, starting from the 0 yard line and hitting it perfectly to the opposite endzone with MINIMAL effort. Walk casually to that endzone, and tee it up again, hitting it back to where you were. Do that 60-70 more times continuously (assuming minimal effort in your swing)...wonder if you are a little fatigued yet...Now try to go to the 18th hole and see how the 'walking' affects your finish mentally and physically [​IMG]

    walking IS the fundamental of MOST sports, INCLUDING golf.

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  17. ChenZhen

    ChenZhen Member

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    So when you guys say hitting the ball is the ONLY aspect of golf...then what about baseball? Does that include hitting only? How about defense, catching, jumping, running, AND WALKING? Yes walking...if you hit a homerun over the fences, could you NOT touch the bases and score for your team? the RULES require you to WALK to the bases by yourself with no assistance....I don't see any carts carrying people around the bases, you HAVE to do it yourself.

    speaking of baseball, don't make me get started with Jim Abbott.

    [This message has been edited by ChenZhen (edited January 17, 2001).]
     
  18. DEANBCURTIS

    DEANBCURTIS Member

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    Although really I don't like the idea of changing the rules, Casey should be allowed to have a cart.

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  19. dc sports

    dc sports Member

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    I don't see how they can get around letting him use a cart -- and I'm surprised it went this far.

    If you work under the assumption that being a professional golfer is a job, and I think any professional golfer would say that it is, it falls under the Americans with Disabilities Act. (Which is what they are arguing.) As long as he can do the essential job functions, they have to make a reasonable accomodation for his disability.

    I can't see how using a cart to get from hole to hole could be considered an unreasonable accomodation. He still walks at the hole, swings the same clubs, uses the same ball, etc. Since carts are allowed at some golf events, and not others, walking between shots isn't essential to the sport.

    I can see the argument about him being rested, etc, but it's not like these guys have to sprint from one hole to the next. As long as he is following the same rules and using regulation equipment during play, I don't see how they could deny him this minor accomodation.

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  20. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    Well, they do have special rules for Elliot, no elbowing in the back. [​IMG] I really don't think these are valid comparisons because there isn't anything, especially in Puckett's, because seeing is a pretty important part of baseball. Walking isn't necessary for you to be able to play golf well.

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    "He was under more balls than a midget hooker."-Bobby Hill

    visit www.swirve.com, coming January 20th, the top 10 films of 2000!

    and, http://www.geocities.com/clutch34_2000 for great Rocket insight by some of your fellow BBS posters!
     

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