I don't know if some of you have been keeping up with this 'row' over some deliberately offensive cartoons printed in a Danish paper, subsequently re-printed in France and somewhere else (can't remember where else). Anyways, My view on this whole thing is that all sides are overreacting. I think the Muslim states should recognize secular arrogance that's embodied in some European cultures, while they're obviously free to respond in ways they see fit to protest what they deem is offensive to them (i.e. boycotting Danish products -- cheese basically -- and other diplomatic responses at their behest). I especially like how the French paper states that they "make fun of other religious figures", I will go out on a limp here and say they've not portrayed Jesus as a terrorist, and that most jokes about Jesus or Moses or Abraham or anyone else are confined to light-hearted humor, not tasteless accusations. Anyways, as I said, all sides are overreacting, but this is a good example of provocation and incitement of hatred when freedoms are exercised in a responsible manner, IMO... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4669360.stm France enters Muslim cartoon row A French newspaper has reproduced a set of Danish caricatures depicting the Prophet Muhammad that have caused outrage in the Muslim world. France Soir said it had published the cartoons to show that "religious dogma" had no place in a secular society. Their publication in Denmark has led to protests in several Arab nations. Responding to France Soir's move, the French government said it supported press freedom - but added that beliefs and religions must be respected. Islamic tradition bans depictions of the Prophet Muhammad or Allah. Under the headline "Yes, we have the right to caricature God", France Soir ran a front page cartoon of Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim and Christian gods floating on a cloud. It shows the Christian deity saying: "Don't complain, Muhammad, we've all been caricatured here." The full set of Danish drawings, some of which depict the Prophet Muhammad as a terrorist, were printed on the inside pages. Bomb threat The paper said it had decided to republish them "because no religious dogma can impose itself on a democratic and secular society". The global controversy the cartoons have provoked "has done nothing to maintain balance and mutual limits in democracy, respect of religious beliefs and freedom of expression", it added. In a statement, the French foreign ministry said the decision to publish the pictures was the sole responsibility of France Soir. The French authorities supported the principle of press freedom, the statement said, adding that that freedom must be exercised "in a spirit of tolerance and with respect for beliefs and religions". The offices of the Danish newspaper that first published the caricatures, Jyllands-Posten, had to be evacuated on Tuesday because of a bomb threat. The paper had apologised a day earlier for causing offence to Muslims, although it maintained it was legal under Danish law to print them. Ministers from 17 Arab countries on Tuesday urged Denmark's government to punish Jyllands-Posten for what they described as an "offence to Islam". Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen welcomed the paper's apology but defended the freedom of the press. The images' publication in Denmark has provoked diplomatic sanctions and threats from Islamic militants across the Muslim world. Thousands of Palestinians demonstrated this week in the Gaza Strip, burning Danish flags and portraits of the Danish prime minister. Saudi Arabia has recalled its ambassador to Denmark, while Libya said it was closing its embassy in Copenhagen and Iraq summoned the Danish envoy to condemn the cartoons.
Many Christians made a very big deal of Piss Christ. My own opinion is the press should be free to do what they want including charicature religious figures. Many might find it tasteless but that's the nature of a free society and I wouldn't expect Islam to get any different treatment than other religions in this regard.
I agree the press is free to do what they want, the other side, however, is also free to respond in a manner they see fit; it just creates a whole atmosphere of hatred and distrust in a time the world could least afford it. But you're right, people are free to say what they want, look like bigots/racists/radicals or whatever else, it just leaves a bad impression. However, much like the other thread about Neo-Nazis marching down minority neighborhoods, I think this is just a bad time for this kind of silliness, that's all; it's incitement. On a related note, isn't there something terribly wrong when instead of respectful disagreement (which is what liberal democracies supposedly represent) instead some choose to resort to hateful displays and the villification of the other party? Isn't there a responsibility for measured/respectful speech even though whatever you say will likely be protected by the Bill of Rights? It seems to me that's what the Bush supporters (Basso, T_J, bigtexxx, among others) always argue whenever anyone brings up something they deem "undermines the war on terror".
Yeah, but the West as a whole was too secularized to get exercised over it. And the row was really about it's funding via the NEA. It was more of a sponsorship issue than a censorship issue.
Struggle for freedom of speech? LOL! Do you know that in some countries such printed material would be considered "hate speech" and thus banned? I don't think the Dannish have to worry about their freedom of speech. Would you like to elaborate on your stance on this issue so I can compare it to your stance on other similar topics and see if you're consistent or a hypocrite? Thanks.
Just because the West is "too secularized" as you put it, does it mean that it's ok to deride and incite Christians who take their religion seriously and expect people to at least respect them even if they disagree with them? Again, as I have said in the past, it's just one more instance of secular arrogance and "holier than thou" attitude that's rather common place in Western Europe these days...
what nazi girls? in case you didn't know, denmark was occupied by germany in 1940. my father was a 6 year old kid then and lived 5 years under nazi occupation. the danes did all the could to protect their indigeous jewish population, ferrying them to sweden in small boats (one such boat is on display at Yad Vashem). my father had an uncle who was caught during one such trip- he later died at Buchenwald- he wasn't jewish, but was caught trying to help them escape.
I am assuming he's referring to those Olson twins look-alikes in the States, not over in Europe. There were many heroic stories of humanity during the Nazi onslaught in Europe, you're correct.
I would expect Christians to criticize it and move on, perhaps boycott if they want. I would not expect them to do this:
LOL! You really crack me up gwayneco. Anybody can issue a fatwa, I can do it, but no one will take me seriously. BTW, what was the fatwa exactly? Was it for Muslims to stop buying Dannish cheese? If so, then I assume that will be the case regardless (besides, Bulgarian cheese is so much better ) Funny thing is, I wasn't even aware of Dannish troops being present in Iraq, so if that's the case they're an occupying army and obviously have been targeted from the very beginning, I don't think it would be anything new.
In an attempt to add something substantial to the debate, this is the response from someone Danish on the background of the story. I make no claims on the validity of the statements, or the opinions expressed therein, but thought people might like to here from someone Danish, since normal people don't speak their goofy language. [rquoter] A little background story: 4 months ago a danish writter wrote a childrens book about the life of Muhammed, but he could´t find a danish artist who wanted to illustrated it, of fear of reprisal from fundemental muslims. The newspaper, Jyllandsposten, heard about this and published the 12 drawings to start a debate about self-censorship among danish artist´s. The drawing´s caused some debate hear in Denmark among Danish muslims, but nothing serious. But then some self-appointed leaders among danish muslims went on a tour of the arab world to rally support against the drawings. Unfortunally, to cause support for there case they used mis-information and flat out lies about Denmark. This really started all the trouble and the boycot of danish products. But the fundemental powers in the arab world has now driven this to absured heights. Demanding appoligeies from the Queen herself and the Primeminister. Why they should appoliges for a newspaper, that they have no control over, I really don´t understand. Last night I saw a highly educated Saudi business man on the news, demanding punishment for the newspaper for insulting there religion. This comming from a Saudi citizen, who will send you in jail if you own a bible, and even banned the import of Christmas trees, made me very angry. If the danish govement or the danish newspaper appologies we are no longer master in our own house. Internal danish politic will then be dictated by fundenmental muslims, and not the danish people. In my opinion this would be a disaster, for what would be next? So this is a very big issue in Denmark. So the Frence and german newspapers showing the pictures is not a provocation, but a (much welcome) help in the danish fight against arab fundementals. Lastly, sorry for my bad english , but I wrote it in Word [/rquoter]
the whole notion of some arab/muslim countries boycotting denmark is stupid. demanding an apology from denmark's gov't is also stupid. granted it is very insensitive and degrading for papers to publish such inciteful crap. that being said the notion of punishing the country economically is stupid.
Why is it blasphemous to portray Muhammed again? I think Muslims need to challenge their own doctrine a little more. If its that offensive at the end of the day, then its certainly their right to pursue sanctions etc, but the whole bomb threat/fatwa stuff is just ridiculous. In the end the right of free press and free speech are way more important than one religious doctrine.
and the other problem is that this kind of outrage attracts more attention. they're making another salman rushdie thing all over again.
Maybe someone got the message. By the way, tigermission, what do you want the Danes to do - shut down the newspaper?
