Assuming the Rocks want/need James Posey here's a way to do it: Rockets send Walt Williams and what's left of the trade exception to Charlotte, Bryce Drew and a pick to the Nuggets. Charlotte does a sign and trade for the difference in Walt's contract and sends Brad Miller to the Nuggets. The Nuggets send Raef La Frentz and Chris Herrin to the Pistons and James Posey and Mamadou N'dyiaye to the Rockets. The Pistons send Jerome Williams to the Rocks. Why it works for Detroit - La Frentz at his natural 4 provide some inside presence to match Stackhouse's outside shooting. Starting lineup - Chucky Atkins, Jerry Stackhouse, Ben Wallace, Cedric Ceballos and Raef La Frentz. Why it works for Charlotte - their cheap, already have a logjam of power players, can choose not to resign Fuller and give the minutes to Thorpe and Magloire. With the exception of Mashburn, Hornets' 3 pt shooting stinks. Starting lineup - David Wesley, Jamal Mashburn, Elden Campbell, Derrick Coleman, P.J. Brown. Quality 2nd unit - Baron Davis, Eddie Robinson, Jamaal Magloire, Walt Williams, Otis Thorpe. Why it works for the Nuggets - currently 16 players under contract gets reduced to 14. Miller is more of a real 5 than La Frentz. Drews contract is team option for 2002. Pick should be mid-1st round and could replace 2001 FA's McClintock, Strickland or Popeye Jones. Starting lineup - Nick Van Exel, Tariq Abdul-Wahad, Brad Miller, George McCloud, Antonio McDyess. Second unit- Drew, Bryant Stith (or Voshon Lenard), Keon Clarke Ryan Bowen, Mark Strickland/Popeye Jones. Why it works for Houston - quality young 3, rebounding machine at 4, don't lose the exception. Starting lineup - Francis, Anderson, Dream, James Posey, Mo Taylor. 2nd Unit - Moochie, Cat, Cato, Langhi, JYD Williams. Remaining roster: KT, 'Los, Bull, Collier, Mamadou N'dyiaye. (Sorry, no room for Pig due to N'dyiaye's contract with Denver - might be possible for N'dyiaye to Pistons and Herrin to Rocks as contracts are similar). Everything looks good moneywise except Denver. This may be adjusted by signing Miller to a higher contract for the sign and trade portion. Any comments? ------------------ GATER
This would all be fine and dandy, however, i think the speculation, is that denver isn't interested in giving up Posey. Sure they have wahad, but posey has more upside. I remember Posey showed up at the summer league games, and was really working on his offensive game. -elie17 ------------------ Oh.. so this is how you add a signature huh? coo coo.
elie17, You're right - he finished second behind Nowitski with around 18.5 ppg. In retrospect, it seems like the Nuggets would get the worst of the 4 teams, but there are pluses including a real 5 and a deep draft. McClouds stats were very comparable to Posey's. I guess the bottom line is would you rather have La Frentz 5 & Posey 3 or Miller 5 & McCloud 3. McDyess would like it b/c he would no longer have to play the other teams 5 on defense! ------------------ GATER
my gawd! raef, herren, posey, and mamadou for miller, drew, williams, pick and exception? this is a joke right? (i cant believe i got an entire thread devoted to unwarranted bashing of me, when you guys make up deals like this...this is an insult to the nuggets! )
If he would've just said he had a source, this thread would be in the 100's by now. ------------------ "The only problem is I always think of the guitar player from Dokken when I hear his name." -Traj, on the possibility of George Lynch joining the Rockets. [This message has been edited by TheFreak (edited September 06, 2000).]
Don't worry NugzFan. Mamadou N'diaye signed a rookie contract on 7/17/00. He isn't going anywhere for a while. The earliest would be mid December before he could be traded. Mango ------------------ 1. Put new topics in the proper forum. Things happening in the rest of the NBA 2. Use clear wording for new threads. 3. No duplicate threads 4. Conduct yourself as an adult. The Serious Police are watching. Donate Blood or be assimilated!
Though I like the trade for us, I think Detroit rips off Denver by getting Raef for Jerome. What if Raef was replaced by Keon Clark? I think Raef makes about a million more than Keon, so the numbers might be off. Any scenario where the Rockets get Posey and lose Walt and Denver gets Miller or a comparable center and something else good like a draft pick or a loss of a contract might be attractive enough to both teams. The Nuggets seem to be primed to dump Keon Clark and have an additional need for a third perimeter scorer, so those are additional considerations. You would think there would be some scenario that would work with all the teams and all the various players and contracts out there....... ------------------ [This message has been edited by Oatdog (edited September 06, 2000).]
Mango You're right - forgot about the N'dyiaye signing date. With 16 players under contract, I'll revisit Denvers part. Keon Clark's salary is about 140k more than N'dyiaye's. NugzFan Glad you showed up. Let's talk. Let me restate the deal in terms of the Nuggets - lose LaFrentz, Posey, N'dyiaye, and Herrin / gain Brad Miller, Bryce Drew, and 1st round pick. If you had the opportunity to improve the Nuggets where would you start? I say you have a pretty good team with La Frentz playing the 5 being your weakest position. Especially since McDyess often winds up on the 5 defensively. So think about the components of my proposal: You had 1 more win than the Rocks (10th best record) last season and the Western Conference has improved. Houston has signed Mo Taylor, the Warriors will have Jamison AND Hughes playing now and the Grizz have got Swift, Austin, and Massenburg to add 4 and 5 strength. Blazers have Kemp/Davis and Vin Baker is in shape. I say you need a REAL 5 to stay competitive. 1) Straight up, is Brad Miller not an improvement of LaFrentz at the 5? That's not to say that Raef is not a better all-round player with more of an outside shot but is this really what you want at the 5. Miller has comparable stats if you put them on a per minute basis and he is a real center. If you want someone who is an outside shooting 5, maybe Portland will deal Sabonis to you. He is more of an inside force than LaFrentz on either end of the floor. Before you get offended and start justifying LaFrentz, address my original point - do you not need a real center? No, I will not agree to a deal where you get Shaq for Voshon Lenard and Keon Clark - let's talk real. IMHO, Miller is an upgrade at 5. 2) Posey for a Rockets 1st round pick. The pick is likely to be the lower of the the Rocks or Bucks. My guess is no *lower* than 15th at the very worst. If you don't improve, you are in the lottery again in 2001 (if you have picks to convey, this one would be it). With no picks to convey, you have a lottery pick and a mid-1st with the chance to move up. You have read Rockets fans ohh and ahh over Terence Morris, Shane Battier, and Troy Murphy as our future 3. I say the first 2 are at minimum Posey's equal. If you don't want them, we will gladly take them. 3) Bryce Drew for Chris Herrin - this one's not even close. Drew avg's 17 ppg in his 5 starts last season. Drew takes a beating on this board because the Rocks are geared up to run and Moochie is a better fit - not necessarily a better player. 4) N'dyiaye (or any combination equaling about $1M in salary - Bowen, Roy Rogers, McClintock). NugzFan - you have 16 players under contract. How much playing time do you realistically think N'dyiaye or McClintock will get at the 5? LaFrentz avg'd 30 min and Clark 20. Neither of these rookies will get more than 5 min per game at the *very* best!! Lose the contracts. It's wasted money. I realize this may look lopsided at first, but look deeper. Next years available FA'a (outside of Webber) are not worth much. There is only trade or draft to improve. I have proposed a real 5 (unless you want to sign Mutombo next year) as a means of (minimum) breaking even this year and really benefitting in a deep draft next year. Think about it and let me know. I'll bet we could work out a deal that would make the GM's jealous. Think quick, the Bulls REALLY want Miller. ------------------ GATER [This message has been edited by GATER (edited September 07, 2000).]
GATER- TOO much time on your hands ------------------ Bow down to GOD FRANCIS! "If they offered me (a lifetime contract) tomorrow, I'd take it." -- Steve Francis on if the Rockets offered him a lifetime deal. He has now been elevated to "God" status.
"Mamadou N'diaye signed a rookie contract on 7/17/00. He isn't going anywhere for a while. The earliest would be mid December before he could be traded" mango; good point ----------------- "Though I like the trade for us, I think Detroit rips off Denver by getting Raef for Jerome. What if Raef was replaced by Keon Clark? I think Raef makes about a million more than Keon, so the numbers might be off. Any scenario where the Rockets get Posey and lose Walt and Denver gets Miller or a comparable center and something else good like a draft pick or a loss of a contract might be attractive enough to both teams. The Nuggets seem to be primed to dump Keon Clark and have an additional need for a third perimeter scorer, so those are additional considerations. You would think there would be some scenario that would work with all the teams and all the various players and contracts out there......" oatdog: i think raef makes about 2 mill more. and whlie i think keon may be on the trade block, i know posey is NOT. ---------------------- gater; ill reply in the next post since you have alot more to talk about.
Glad you showed up. Let's talk. Let me restate the deal in terms of the Nuggets - lose LaFrentz, Posey, N'dyiaye, and Herrin / gain Brad Miller, Bryce Drew, and 1st round pick. this is would not do unless the pick is a great one from another team. this is really horrible for us. If you had the opportunity to improve the Nuggets where would you start? I say you have a pretty good team with La Frentz playing the 5 being your weakest position. Especially since McDyess often winds up on the 5 defensively. So think about the components of my proposal: You had 1 more win than the Rocks (10th best record) last season and the Western Conference has improved. Houston has signed Mo Taylor, the Warriors will have Jamison AND Hughes playing now and the Grizz have got Swift, Austin, and Massenburg to add 4 and 5 strength. Blazers have Kemp/Davis and Vin Baker is in shape. I say you need a REAL 5 to stay competitive. if i had to pick one position to upgrade it would be center or perhaps sg. kinda depends on what kind of changes were talking about. but if i defintely had to chose one, yes i agree, center. 1) Straight up, is Brad Miller not an improvement of LaFrentz at the 5? That's not to say that Raef is not a better all-round player with more of an outside shot but is this really what you want at the 5. Miller has comparable stats if you put them on a per minute basis and he is a real center. If you want someone who is an outside shooting 5, maybe Portland will deal Sabonis to you. He is more of an inside force than LaFrentz on either end of the floor. Before you get offended and start justifying LaFrentz, address my original point - do you not need a real center? No, I will not agree to a deal where you get Shaq for Voshon Lenard and Keon Clark - let's talk real. IMHO, Miller is an upgrade at 5. straight up, id say no. one cuz im a nuggets fan and two cuz raef could be really good down the line. but ill agree with you and say miller is, but not by alot. 2) Posey for a Rockets 1st round pick. The pick is likely to be the lower of the the Rocks or Bucks. My guess is no *lower* than 15th at the very worst. If you don't improve, you are in the lottery again in 2001 (if you have picks to convey, this one would be it). With no picks to convey, you have a lottery pick and a mid-1st with the chance to move up. You have read Rockets fans ohh and ahh over Terence Morris, Shane Battier, and Troy Murphy as our future 3. I say the first 2 are at minimum Posey's equal. If you don't want them, we will gladly take them. absolutely absolutely absolutely not. this is just terrible from our perspective. yeah fine posey was 18th pick, but van exel was 37th. we got a steal and im not going to trade posey for a pick around 18 cuz he got picked there. so no i would not trade posey for the 15th pick (although when you say no lower than 15, does that mean your guess is the pick is 15th, 14th, 13th... or 15th, 16th, 17th... which direction? i always thought the terminology was bad here in general ) 3) Bryce Drew for Chris Herrin - this one's not even close. Drew avg's 17 ppg in his 5 starts last season. Drew takes a beating on this board because the Rocks are geared up to run and Moochie is a better fit - not necessarily a better player. drew doesnt make us that much better. is he worth what the rest of the deal lacks? no. if he was a solid backup player, then id do it and risk whatever else comes with it, but its bryce drew. 4) N'dyiaye (or any combination equaling about $1M in salary - Bowen, Roy Rogers, McClintock). NugzFan - you have 16 players under contract. How much playing time do you realistically think N'dyiaye or McClintock will get at the 5? LaFrentz avg'd 30 min and Clark 20. Neither of these rookies will get more than 5 min per game at the *very* best!! Lose the contracts. It's wasted money. ndyaie will get limited minutes all year. hes a 2-3 year project. mcclintock wont play a minute is my guess. probably goes to europe like bowen did. but they are so cheap and our owner is so rich thats its worth keeping them on JUST IN CASE. we keep em, its hardly alot of money to invest. they could turn out to be pretty good and we wont just give them up. ndyaie cost us phoenixs pick last year. I realize this may look lopsided at first, but look deeper. Next years available FA'a (outside of Webber) are not worth much. There is only trade or draft to improve. I have proposed a real 5 (unless you want to sign Mutombo next year) as a means of (minimum) breaking even this year and really benefitting in a deep draft next year. still does you contend that miller is going to seriously improve over raef (can miller guard shaq, duncan, etc any better? hardly) and it doesnt make us any deeper. the posey part was really bad and the backup pg thing is so minimal. btw; i think the bulls got miller. [This message has been edited by NugzFan (edited September 07, 2000).]
Nugzfan Sorry my last response was so lengthy. You had some excellent points. Here are a few more tidbits: 1) It looks like Miller is headed to the Bulls, but according to NBAtalk, they are gonna shop him around. The Nuggets were interested last summer, but only offered him the $2.5m exception (source: Charlotte Gazette). Don't be surprised if the Bulls make you an offer. 2) I like Bryce Drews solid though unspectacular play. Again, according to NBAtalk Chris Herrin is involved in trade rumors. Bryant Stith and Herrin to Boston for guard Robert Pack and forward Calbert Cheaney. So, you'd rather have Robert Pack over Bryce Drew? Don't hear the Nuggets management denying it. Personally, if Boston made the offer to the Rocks I would be glad if they passed on Pack. BBallplaya - Not really too much time on my hands. Posey was an afterthought as I have been trying to think of a way to get Jerome Williams for about a month. I have loaded salaries into a spreadsheet and can work up cap variances easily. The hard part was loading the initial salaries. Glad it's done!!!! ------------------ GATER [This message has been edited by GATER (edited September 07, 2000).]
1) It looks like Miller is headed to the Bulls, but according to NBAtalk, they are gonna shop him around. The Nuggets were interested last summer, but only offered him the $2.5m exception (source: Charlotte Gazette). Don't be surprised if the Bulls make you an offer. yeah i heard that we offered him our exception but we never had a chance cuz charlotte was going to match anything. 2) I like Bryce Drews solid though unspectacular play. Again, according to NBAtalk Chris Herrin is involved in trade rumors. Bryant Stith and Herrin to Boston for guard Robert Pack and forward Calbert Cheaney. So, you'd rather have Robert Pack over Bryce Drew? Don't hear the Nuggets management denying it. Personally, if Boston made the offer to the Rocks I would be glad if they passed on Pack. actually i would rather have pack but i hated that celtics deal and thank god it is not happening.
