Hypothetical situation: An average American injures his shoulder playing sports and goes to see his family doctor about it. She prescribes Advil and tells him to check back in a week. A week passes and there is no improvement so he goes back and the family doctor makes an appointment for him to see an orthopedic specialist. How long does he have to wait to see this specialist? A few days? A week? A month? Longer? I just found out today that my appointment is for December 17th. Yep, I have to wait six whole months to get any real diagnosis for my shoulder. Also, a few years ago, when my mother had a neurological condition, she had to wait a whole year just to get a MRI exam. That's ridiculous. What is the norm in the American Health Care system? Do you have to endure long waiting lists like this? How much does it cost to see an orthopedic specialist in the US? This free health care system isn't all that it's cracked up to be. I'm starting to think that Stockwell Day had the right idea with his two-tiered health plan. Maybe it's just me, but I think that if you have a six month waiting period to get someone to look at a shoulder injury, then something is not right.
this has always been one of my key concerns...i read a study once that said it took people in Great Britain nearly a year to get orthoscopic knee surgery...my mom visited a specialist and had her surgery all within about a month and a half...and it only took that long because she was going on vacation during that period!
Fade, Specialists here vary as far as waiting goes. It depends on where your insurance funnels you, how busy they are, etc. I hate to wait about 3 months to get MRI's on my knees. Of course, it took a year and a half to get to the dentist after we moved (insurance paperwork issues and a "new customers in 6 months" policy). Funny, my gp told me to do nothing and then my specialist told me to take Aleve. After 3 years of specialists, I finally got MRI's..."oh, it is more than just pain, you have arthritis...take some more Aleve and deal with it." Lol...gotta love doctors.
fadeaway, Depends on where you live (i.e. Specialist supply varies by region impacting appointments and fees both), your insurance, etc. Generally, you could probably schedule an appointment within 2 weeks for almost any service. When I needed to see the orthopaedic surgeon, it took 1 week for the appointment and about 3 weeks to get knee surgery (California, HMO insurance).
rimbaud, Hmm. Damaged knees are easily aggravated, resulting in swelling, free-radical damage, and ultimately leads to arthritis. Anyway, I'm no Dr. but glucosamine supplements work for my knees anytime they bother me.
Yeah, I know they just deteriorated over time...but when I finally got my MRI's, they had been damaged for 8 years - it took three years explaining to them that the previous five were not just me overly complaining or just having weak knees because I didn't work out - lol...my legs even now are pretty strong. Glucosamine has never had any noticeable effect for me, so I don't take them...that, and they are made from the lining in a cow's nose.
Originally posted by rimbaud ...Glucosamine has never had any noticeable effect for me, so I don't take them... You need to take it religiously for about 2 months for starters. After that, you can take it as needed. that, and they are made from the lining in a cow's nose. Yeah, and I bet you drink fluid from a cow's breasts...so what? (It's not really the 'lining' anyway, it's the cartilidge)
You knew I’d come in on this one fadeaway. I may be from Alberta, but I’m no fan of Stockwell Day. I do think our system needs to be reformed, but two tier is not the answer. In the long run that will lead to more problems. Some of our waiting lists are too long, but IMO that is due to governments pinching the system too much to cut down on deficits. Now that most provinces are on the positive side, more money should be but back into the system. But better yet, I think there are new ideas that can cut costs and even improve care. More use of home care is one. The Romanow report is coming out soon, and I’m looking forward to reading what they’ve come up with.
Grizzled, Problem is, your government will get pinched during each recession. What market forces there are with government HC, are merged with all all other government activities (i.e., politicians can say 'do you want roads for everyone or shorter wait times for a few people?')
Yeah, I've done that (religiously for 4 months, actually - and different brands/kinds at different times)...it is not some miracle cure that works for everyone...just didn't work for me. Yeah, and I bet you drink fluid from a cow's breasts...so what? (It's not really the 'lining' anyway, it's the cartilidge) Actually, I don't.
True. So perhaps more clearly defining minimum standards (including maximum wait times), or creating a management body that operates more at arm’s length, could be other reforms to the system.
Capitalism always creates a better product and more efficiency versus a state managed or socialized health-care system. I don't know why there are so many forces pushing socialization of Healthcare. If you have enough money you buy health insurance, and if you don't you use medicare. I don't believe in government growth just to grow and encompassing what should be in the private sector. In Canada, England and Norweigen Europe, healthcare is covered but the quality and service is horrible. We all know the compassion we feel from government workers at the IRS, do we want our doctors acting the same?
Khan, A few things are wrong from your post: If you have enough money you buy health insurance, and if you don't you use medicare. Only the elderly use Medicare and it is generally a good program. The uninsured (or underinsured) poor use Medicaid and it is a mess of a system. In Canada, England and Norweigen Europe, healthcare is covered but the quality and service is horrible. Just about all of industrialized Europe has a nationalized healthcare system. Australia, Mexico, the Netherlands, New Zealand & Japan are a few others. Even Hawaii has a version of a nationalized system. Quality ranges, as to be expected...just as it does within our own country.
Not true. Even with its current problems, Canada’s system is still much more efficient than the American one. There is a lot info on the web about this. Search “Canada Medicare.” Here one article of many. http://www.healthcoalition.ca/relman.html Some things are better run by governments. Would you like a privatised police system, perhaps competing police forces in the same city? How about privatised tax collection? Privatised army? Health care is one those services that is much more efficiently, effectively and equitably run by government. This isn’t to say that government couldn’t do it better than they do, just that they do it much better than the private sector does or could. Because it’s a clearly and demonstrably better system. It’s no accident that so many countries use some version of it. We also feel that a citizen’s access to good healthcare is a basic human right. Not as horrible as you’ve been told, I suspect, and on average MUCH better than the American system. You seem to be locked into some kind of stereotype that doesn’t exist. There are stories here of doctors who’ve gone to the US, to make more money, and have come back because of all the concessions they had to make treating people because they didn’t have adequate coverage, or because of libel chill, or because the hospital was profit driven not care driven. Nobody here is advocating going to an American system. There are people here who are advocating going to a more privatised system, a two tier type system, but those people are always quick to say that the two tier system would never end up like the American one. The opponents of two tier say it would. Both sides hold up the American system as the worst possible system, other than no system at all.
Yeah, Grizzled, Canadians seem to feel that way about a lot of issues, not just healthcare, so whatever. Seems to me that waiting too long to get an appointment with socialized medicine is just as likely to kill you as being to poor to go to the doctor in the first place. Except that you pay a hell of a lot of taxes for the privilege of being told to piss off. And stop painting this rosey picture of 'socialized medicine' elsewhere. The English raise more hell about how terrible their system is than any Americans every have.
Grizzled, For my response, I wouldn't even know where to start. I'll begin with the horrible article that you referenced. Let's be clear that many many physicians despise managed care for a variety of reasons, one of them being financial. The article has a ridiculous bias that makes it nearly unreadable for those familiar with the industry. For instance, the crap he writes about Medicare recipients voting with their feet. I cannot even imagine someone proposing this! The reality is that our Federal Government paid HMOs 95% of what they expected to pay under Fee For Service to care for Seniors who voluntarily signed up for HMOs. Why did they sign-up? Because the HMOs were able to offer much better benefits, sometimes even pharmaceuticals, for less money than the gov. The last administration decided to save some $ and reduce reimbursements even further to the HMOs (and to increase reimbursements for rural areas at the expense of urban areas). THe HMOs warned the feds that they were losing money on these Medicare plans at the new rates and would back-out of areas where they weren't reimbursed enough. The administration thought it was a game and made threats the HMOs. The HMOs proceeded to close down markets because they really were losing money. Some urban areas, like Houston, were left with no Medicare HMOs. My parents live in Houston. They are moderately heavy users of the healthcare system, and loved their HMO and FREE PRESCRIPTIONS. They now pay $2000/ year on presecriptions. They did not get to vote with their feet, the democratic administration had them booted. That is one small example of what a bunch of crap this 'academic' spews. BTW, did you ever think about where some of our extra American fees go to? We probably play the highest Pharmacy rates in the world, effectively underwriting pharmaceuticals around the world, including Canada's. The real problem with health care is that quality and thus value cannot be quantified. You state that the Canadian system is more efficient, but since you cannot quantify quality or value you never will be able to support that statement. The American system is moving towards quantifying quality. We now have standardized, mandated reporting for all Medicare and Medicaid plans and this is available to the public. The same reports are generally used for Commercial Plans also. Americans are already able select their Health Plan based on quality-based metrics, although the information is new and few are aware of it. Our government already places financial penalties on Medicare and Medicaid plans that don't pass muster. Some metrics address access to care issues that seem to be rampant in Canada, UK, and other nationalized systems. Soon, Americans will be able to select their physicians based on similar metrics. Plans and Providers who cannot make the grade will fail. The free-market will have worked, but it has a way to go due to the monumental challanges in comparing health care quality across providers and facilities. Meanwhile, nationalized systems will be trying to learn what they can from the result of our market forces at work.
