Can Francis and Hakeem co-exist

I agree.

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are you insane?

you right a whole spiel on how hakeem and francis can coexist and you plead why hakeem can still be a great defensive presense.

and then you make rolleyes?

ok nutcase.



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if you are reading this signature because you are looking for something funny or witty to make you chuckle you have been fooled because this is the most unfunny and unwitty signature ever but i find it absolutely hilarious that you've read it this far

 

Vince,
We did what you said all year long and our frony court sucked ass. There were some bright moments, but there were many lackluster nights at the PF and center spots. Cato is a good player, and if he weren't getting paid so much money, he'd be even better (right?). KT was a rookie, and he'll do nothing IMO but gett better. In any event, our frontcourt needs improvement.

Hakeem needs to be Bill Walton for the '86 Celtics or keep his ass off of the court.

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Of course they can coexist in Utopia... unfortunately, it doesn't appear that Hakeem is willing to relegate his role to a defensive stopper. Can they coexist if Hakeem insists on posting up frequently? Nope.

Hakeem needs to become a spot-up jumpshooting, shot-blocker... and it doesn't appear that he wants to do that... even if he were healthy enough.

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That's really the key, isn't it? Hakeem has not demonstrated over the past few years that he can be healthy for an entire season or that his health doesn't effect his play. It obviously does. A healthy Hakeem is still a skilled, experienced defensive player and a solid jump shooter, but an unhealthy Hakeem is more nightmare than Dream.

(Note: that last line was taken from the Fran Blinebury Random Metaphor Generator v. 1.0)



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"No one gets out ALIVE!"
SaveOurRockets.com

 

Hakeem does still have game. If his health permits, he can still be a presence. But is he afraid of falling down or what!? Kneepads are alright. But elbow pads make him look a little silly. This year he is going to play with a helmet. Dream may make $16 million this year, but he is going to look like a second grader learning to rollerblade.

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Pig Miller was in "Space Jam"

 

Vince, with all due respect, Hakeem will never come back and average 20 and 10. He is a great guy and was one hell of a player, but his health has taken its toll on him.

If he came back and averaged 10 pts, 5 boards and 1.5 blocks, I think we'd have to be thrilled by that.

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"No one gets out ALIVE!"
SaveOurRockets.com

 

Well, Jeff, he averaged 10, 6, and 1.6 this season, and noone was happy with that. Those are subpar #s from any starting-caliber center, and I would rather see him retire than embarrass himself like that.

At the same time you're right - 20 and 10 is a pipe dream. I would love to see him start and get 12 - 14 ppg, 8 - 9 boards, and 2 blocks. I can't fathom why Ewing is still a viable C in this league, while Dream, this last year, was decidedly not.

As for the original question, can Dream and Francis co-exist, I say (for 1 year) yes. We were desperate for a post-up presence at times this last season, and if Dream could bring that, as a 2nd or 3rd option (say 15 - 20 touches on the left block) our team would be greatly improved. Francis will still get his.

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Hakeem averaged 18 and 9 last year, when he was healthy. He's two years older now. Nobody's body ages perfectly.

Charles Barkley said something that impressed me at the beginning of the year-that while he was at his peak, it seemed that the game went in slow motion.. but that as he got older, it began to slow down... I'd suspect that something similar is true for Hakeem.

He's a middle aged man now. He can't be expected to play like he's young, anymore.

It annoys me that you accuse us of not being loyal by being realistic. Appraising a situation realistically does not constitute being a "bandwagoner."

I feel loyalty towards Hakeem and the Houston Rockets, but this doesn't mean living in "denial." Have reasonable expectations of people. If Hakeem somehow managed 20-10, you wouldn't find anyone happier than me.

If he averages 14/9 shoudl he play again, I'd also be happy.

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For the origional question -- of course they can co-exist. They are two of the nicest players in the league. Hakeem is going to have to be more flexible, but after the humbling experience of the 1999-2000 season, that shoudln't be a problem. It's not like Barkley vs. Pippen. They are more than capable of working together.

This is worth clarifying -- because it seems to be a common misconception.

Contracts are NEVER given on the basis of past performance. They are given based on FUTURE expected performance. More specifically, they are given with the hope of getting the most bang for the buck -- based on who is willing to pay the most for a player. Past performance is used as a measure of what a player should be able to do in the future, but teams are paying for what they hope to get from a player, not what they've already gotten.

When the Rockets signed Hakeem's current contract, they had high hopes for his performance over the next few years. They expected great things from him, and paid accordingly, in order to lock him in for the long term. This worked well for several years. Unfortunately Hakeem has run into problems -- but that's the risk they took.

The Rockets will honor the contract because they have no choice -- If they could exit the contract, they would. Rest assured, if Hakeem was signing year to year contracts at this point, he would not be getting $14 and $16 million dollar contracts, no matter how well he has played in the past.

Disclaimer -- I am not anti-Hakeem, and would love to see him have one more good year. I am addressing the point stated above. If you disagree, please say so, but don't slam me for being anti-Hakeem.




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Stay Cool...

 

Can they co-exist? Well, sentimentality aside, Hakeem had better learn how to or prepare to spend most of next year on the bench. This is Stevie's team now.

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He's a center! He's a guard! He's seven feet of unbridled talent. He slices, dices, and can even cut through a TIN CAN!

He's Kelvin Cato, and he can be yours for a low low price!

 

Rocketsauce,

I agree. There are all kinds of problems with the way professional sports contracts work. We could start another board on that topic alone.

In Hakeem's case, the contract was NOT designed to make up for anything -- and contracts never are. When they negotiated his contract, the Rockets agreed on X amount for X number of years, with the payments gradually increasing each year. The increases are designed to give a little breathing room, assuming the cap will increase a little over time.

This is designed to be a win-win scenerio. The team guarantees a player for the long haul, and can build around that player. The player gets the assurance that if something happens to him, he struggles for a few years, or his market value drops for any reason, he is locked in, and has a guaranteed contract.

There is also some risk involved with this marriage. If the team is bad, the player is stuck. If the average player salary goes up, or he blossoms into the next Michael Jordan, he's stuck. On the other hand, if the player starts struggling, or having health problems, the team is stuck. It's all part of these long term, multi million dollar contracts.

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Stay Cool...

 

Hakeem has, on several occasions this season, already relinquished the leadership role to Francis.

He's not that stubborn. He knows this ain't 1995. He knows that he can no longer put a team on his back and carry them to the post-season, much less through it.

He is a student of basketball. He knows the progression of a professional player. He "came of age" as Kareem was on his way down.

But what he does know is that health, not ability, has hindered him. He also knows that the team has taken a whole new direction and has a new leader and superstar.

Jeff, I agree that the past has shown us that Hakeem will indeed encounter some new and intersting type of injury. But that is based on him in his old role.

What if his minutes are lighter and and responsibilities less? If he just concentrated on defense and rebounds then he would be a major assett, better than just about anyone we could realistically pick up.

Imagine all of the point apportunities he would get from all of those backcourt misses.

When we get to the playoffs next year, his experience will be invaluable.

I think it's only fair that Hakeem be blessed with one final, healthy, and glorious season.



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RocketFuel is taking the summer off!

 

I think that some people on this board have excused Hakeem's salary because he was "underpaid" for a number of years and that is the part I hate. Rarely is a player underpaid. I just hate it when a plyer yunder contrct cries that his team doesn't respect him because 3 other players ar emaking mor ethan him. I know this is the wrong thread for this but I just beacme a member today after 8 months and 2,000 visits so I thought I'd vent a little.

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You know, Rocketsauce, I'll certainly agree with you to a point but... players should be paid market value. I think it's sort of a trade off: not renegotiating a contract for a player to market value could result in their alienation from the team and eventual departure in free agency. Now, if a team is willing to take this risk, fine, don't pay the guy. On the other hand, if a team thinks a player has become a valuable edition to the team, then I think it's only fair that they pay him accordingly.

One thing I don't like: it's possible for player salaries to go up according to market value by renegotiation, but impossible for them to decline (although this does happen with restructuring in the NFL, I THINK). I think there should be some method of arbitration to adjust player salary should the player not fulfill his obligations. What would you think of this?

A little side note: I'm very much in favor of having mroe contracts similar to the Ricky Williams one. I'm afraid that Williams bad experience may preclude more of these from being signed, but I think incentives based contracts might be the best way to operate.

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A lot of contracts have bonuses tied to specific performance.

What would concern me, especially in basketball, is allegations of either a) you pulled me when I had 18 points, and I needed 20 to get a bonus, or b) someone being a ball hog, just to get to a certain level, when the team would do better playing as a team. You make the individuals compete against each other, and the coach.

Perhaps they should tie the salaries to the team's performance. -- $5,000 for a win, $1,000 for a loss.

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Stay Cool...

 

I think arbitration is an excellent idea. Unfortunately it tends to alienate the players and they're already fragile enough as it is. I just think that guarenteed contracts are a little odd. The contract is written with the assumption that a player will continue to play at a certain level. If I sign a contract with my employer and then turn into a moron the I should expect to get fired. If that level is substantially higher than the level that the player performs at, then there should be a buyout clause. I know that they need some guarentee, I just wish the team would have the option to buyout the remainder of the contract at a set percent in case a player pulls a Pippen on you. I will have to admit that the CBA is a hell of a lot better for the fans than baseball whacked out salary scale.

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I am curious about the way the contracts work in the NBA. It always seems that in other sports(especially the NFL), a player will have one good year after an otherwise sub-par career, and all of a sudden he wants his contract reworked because all of a sudden he feels underpaid. All of the contracts these players sign are fine when they sign them but the minute some other player is making more and doing less, they feel like they are being disrespected by their team. It makes me sick. I would love for a coach just once to go on national tv (like the players do) and dog a player because he hasn't earned a penny. I know that Hakeem's contract is supposed to make up for the years that he was underpaid, but that doesn't make sense to me. Every time he signed a contract he became one of the highest paid players. So what if the salaries went up the following year. It's not like it was inflation related. If he can no longerdeliver up to the standards of his contract then they should be able to rework it. But that can't happen and I don't want Hakeem traded or forced to retire. He has at least earned the right to retire a Rocket and on his own terms. I just wish we didn't have to pay him 16million to do it.

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