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But, wait!! The media told me everyone was AGAINST invading Iraq...

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by MadMax, Sep 3, 2002.

  1. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    They even said that good old Tony Blair was against invading Iraq and wanted a more cautious approach. They told us Bush was just a crazed cowboy looking to enforce some western style justice without any support. Huh??? Interesting that Tony is now rushing forth with evidence to support a strike, because he seems to think time is of the essence.

    http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=685567&in_review_text_id=658304

    Blair: I'll publish Saddam evidence

    by Joe Murphy, Whitehall Editor
    Tony Blair is to hurry forward the evidence to show that Saddam Hussein is amassing weapons of mass destruction in an urgent attempt to reverse the tide of public opinion, flowing increasingly strongly against war with Iraq.

    The Prime Minister devoted almost all of his first British press conference since his return from holiday to the subject of Iraq and the launch of what is clearly to be an intense effort to win back hearts and minds to his strategy of backing an American-led assault on Saddam's regime.

    He denounced his critics in the Labour Party and beyond, saying that, while some had reasonable questions to ask, too many were governed by a knee jerk anti-Americanism. He fiercely fended off charges that he himself was President Bush's poodle.

    "I would never support anything I thought was wrong out of some blind loyalty to the United States," he declared. "The Americans are not wrong, they are right, and the reason our place is beside them is not because of some misplaced allegiance or blind loyalty by me but because it is the right thing to do."

    The Prime Minister acknowledged that the original plan had been to publish the Saddam dossier, painstakingly compiled by America and Britain - with what help could be made available by other countries - if and when the decision was taken to go to war.

    Now, he went on, "I think this it is probably a better idea to bring this forward", adding that the document would be unveiled within the next few weeks.

    The Prime Minister conceded that move, along with his own new offensive, followed several weeks during which the Labour Left has made the running and the opinion polls have suggested the voters are turning against his strategy.

    His next big test will be next week at the TUC Conference, where the Prime Minister is scheduled to speak on Tuesday and where the Left is already lined up for a big anti-Bush-Blair attack.

    The Prime Minister again affirmed that no decision had been taken on military action. His language made ever more clear, however, that he is facing up to the prospect of sending in British Forces.

    A move to war, Mr Blair said, is "something you take as a last resort. But you also know that when you are faced with a threat and a menace you have to deal with it."

    While Mr Blair was defending the case for a possible war, the Iraqi dictator used the platform of the Earth Summit to claim he might allow United Nations weapons inspectors back into his country.

    The offer - which inevitably came with strings attached - was made at Johannesburg where Iraq's deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz met Kofi Annan, the UN Secretary-General.

    It appeared to be a deliberate attempt by Saddam to exploit the summit to cause confusion and drive a wedge between President Bush and potential allies including Britain. Mr Blair has been notably keener than the president on whether to seek UN backing.

    "We are ready to co-operate with the United Nations," said Mr Aziz.

    He added: "If the question of socalled weapons of mass destruction is a genuine concern by the United States, this matter could be dealt with reasonably and equitably. In the end they will use whatever pretext remains to attack us. We are preparing ourselves to defend our country."
     
  2. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    more....

    http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20020903-114117-5360r

    Blair: UK has proof of Saddam's weapons
    By Al Webb
    United Press International
    From the International Desk
    Published 9/3/2002 12:05 PM
    View printer-friendly version


    LONDON, Sept. 3 (UPI) -- British Prime Minister Tony Blair, facing a growing tide of political and public opposition to military action against Iraq, said Tuesday he will go public within the next few weeks with proof that Saddam Hussein is developing weapons of mass destruction.

    Blair also indicated at a news conference he was taking a harder line alongside the United States in Washington's demand for a "regime change" in Baghdad, a position that could take a military invasion to bring about.

    "Either the regime (of Saddam) starts to function in an entirely different way -- and there hasn't been much sign of that -- or the regime has to change," the British leader said. "That is the choice, very simply."

    Blair said Iraq "poses a real and unique threat" to the entire world. "It continues to develop weapons of mass destruction. We have to face up to it, we have to deal with it."

    Asked to produce some evidence, the prime minister said his government has spent months compiling a dossier against Saddam and that "the best thing to do is to publish that in the next few weeks," to prove that Iraq possesses chemical and biological weapons and that it is seeking to develop nuclear weapons technology.

    Government officials earlier this year said such a document was being prepared. But as months have gone by without its release, opposition to British participation in any U.S.-led military action against Iraq has grown to worrisome proportions for Blair.

    Some 160 members of Parliament, many of them from Blair's own ruling Labor Party, have signed a motion opposing British involvement in any military campaign against Iraq, and as many as three members of his Cabinet are said poised to quit over the action.

    Meanwhile, a series of public opinion polls during the past week have shown that from 52 percent to 71 percent of Britons are against a war on Iraq. Even in Sedgefield, Blair's own constituency in northeast England where he had Tuesday's news conference, a regional newspaper survey showed 54 percent of voters opposed his stance on Iraq.

    Blair attributed much of the opposition to "anti-Americanism -- I think there's a lot of that around." Defending his own alignment with President George W. Bush, he said, "America shouldn't have to face this issue alone."

    Stung by criticism in some quarters that he was the American leader's "poodle," Blair insisted: "I would never support anything I thought was wrong just out of blind support for the United States."

    Blair declined to confirm or deny published reports he planned to meet with Bush for face-to-face talks -- probably in Washington or at Camp David, Md. -- sometime this month.

    "I don't want to comment on when any meetings will take place," Blair said.

    He repeated several times the threat posed by the Iraqis.

    "They will acquire whatever weapons they can," he said.

    He added that his government's dossier showed Baghdad already has stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons and that "there is some evidence" that it is seeking to acquire nuclear weapons.


    Blair reiterated his demand that U.N. inspectors be allowed in by Iraq to inspect its weapons.

    "There is no negotiation about this," he said, referring to Baghdad's comments that it might be willing to talk about the issue in inspectors.

    "They know what they have to do," the prime minister said.

    In Johannesburg, South Africa, Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz said Tuesday his country would discuss the return of weapons' inspectors but only if a dialogue regarding Iraqi sovereignty over its territory and end to sanctions were also part of the program.

    "If there is to be a solution, there should be a solution for all of the important issues in Iraq," he said in a statement. "It is not possible to select just one aspect and address only that."

    The proposal is similar to previous Iraqi proposals and, according to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, is unacceptable.

    "The return of inspectors must be unconditional," Annan said after meeting with Aziz.

    Meanwhile, Blair added, there is a string of nine U.N. resolutions with 27 demands -- 23 of which Baghdad hasn't met -- still on the table to be dealt with.

    Blair sidestepped a question as to whether the Anglo-American alliance would seek a U.N. mandate before going ahead with any military action against Iraq.

    "The important thing," he said, "is that the U.N. has to be a route to deal with this problem. Not a way of avoiding dealing with it."
     
  3. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    I guess that Carlyle Group check finally cleared Tony's bank!
     
  4. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    do you realize what kind of charge that is??? first...this was one clinton's cronies...they were cut from the same mold in many ways...this is not margaret thatcher, here.

    second...you honestly believe that he's sending UK boys to fight and possible die for a check?? you think that's more likely than the UK actually have information that supports this position??? i gotta tell you, that's really a very blinded approach.
     
  5. BrianKagy

    BrianKagy Member

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    I'm not enthusiastic about invading Iraq.

    It does seem odd that we have a situation that we think is so urgent that it requires that we remove a foreign leader-- yet we're talking and talking and alking about it.

    All I know is, I never want to feel the way I felt last September 11th. If we want to try to avoid that, we're going to have to be a lot more proactive in addressing threats.

    To me, it's like the Clinton/bin Laden thing. We had no reason to really believe that terrorists were capable of destruction of the sort they managed on 9/11, so bin Laden wasn't thought of as that big a threat.

    Well, we learned a hard lesson. We have to keep applying what we've learned. A lot of people don't think Saddam is that big a threat, that it's unlikely he has or will soon get weapons of mass destruction.

    Well, tell you what. We roll over Baghdad and kill his sorry ass only to find out that all they had was an Erector Set and a bottle of bleach, I owe you a Coke.

    I think we have to assume the worst. We have to assume that, because he's anti-America, he can and will get a nuclear weapon and he'll set the thing off in the most damaging place possible.
     
  6. rimbaud

    rimbaud Member
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    Just to be technical, both of those articles say that there is a large anti-invasion sentiment...that Blair is trying to change. It seems Blair has always been in favor, just that his peole are not - putting him in a hard spot.

    What do these articles change?
     
  7. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    they certainly change what i've read posted here and throughout the media...that blair was backing away from bush on this one...that bush was all alone on this one...that apparently is not the case.
     
  8. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    who do you mean when you say, "we." i know the general populace didn't think they were capable of that...but there were terrorism experts warning of us this exact sort of event years earlier...we were told that this sort of thing was ultimately inevitable...and they were the ones saying, "see, i told you so" on Sept. 11th while we all stood around in shock...Clinton, you'll remember, said Bin Laden was Enemy #1 and took an all new approach to stamping out terrorism before it got to us.
     
    #8 MadMax, Sep 3, 2002
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2002
  9. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    Max, I don't know what sort of 'media' you're listening to -- no one has suggested that EVERYONE was against attacking Iraq. What's been suggested is that there is a great deal of debate as to the wisdom of attacking now. The fact that Blair backs it is hardly a magic bullet. There is dissent in England, there is dissent in the US Congress, there is dissent in the Republican party and there is dissent in the administration. I think that's what you've read -- not that "everyone" is against it. You might as well post an article stating that Cheney backs the action. When Scowcroft, Eagleburger, Hagel, Baker, Kissinger and Powell ALL advise caution, while only Cheney and Rumsfeld favor immediate action, it really is a story. Don't blame the so-called liberal media for reporting the facts.

    Kagy: Clinton's team had forwarded a recommendation for attacking Al Qaeda to the Bush team during the transition. It was under review when 9/11 happened. Don't say Clinton disregarded the Bin Laden threat. He may have underestimated it, but no more so than did the Bush admin. I totally understand your position here -- better safe than sorry and all that. But what all these (usually hawkish) Republicans are warning against is that a unilateral (or bi-lateral with England) attack, without international support could well be more dangerous to the US and its allies than a more cautious approach. They would also tell you that if we blow it here, we're going to owe a lot of people more than a Coke. I know you're joking here, but it's just not funny.
     
  10. Sonny

    Sonny Member

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    We have to remove Saddam - I am glad to see Blair supporting this. I am sure there is plenty of information supporting his attempted production of WOMD. Saddam is just trying to buy time with the UN, he won't let the inspectors back in unless they remove all Gulf War sanctions and allow him full roam to northern Iraq. This will not happen. I just saw a new poll on USAToday that shows support is rising for an attack on Iraq.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-09-02-poll-iraq_x.htm

    I find it funny that the British are following our lead on things now. Kinda vice versa from 200yrs ago. :)
     
  11. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    Batman...with all due respect, what you're saying is not accurate. I've read articles (even ones posted here, i believe) that said that Blair was backing away from Bush on this one...this is not the same as saying, "cheney supports it." Not even close. This is a major world leader from Europe showing MAJOR support for this...even going so far as to share intelligence reports with the public. This is a European leader talking about "anti-american kneejerk reactions" and saying "america is right." With all due respect, this is quite different...and this is not at all what the media has reported on Blair's reactions to these possibilities to this point.
     
  12. Soybean Fanatic

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    they certainly change what i've read posted here and throughout the media...that blair was backing away from bush on this one...that bush was all alone on this one...that apparently is not the case.

    Blair isn't drifting away, the popular opinion in the UK is.

    He's obviously trying to change that, but it remains to be seen if he'll have success.
     
  13. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    but this is the point of Blair's speech today....that we're not blowing it...that the Brits have credible evidence without which Blair WOULD NOT support this kind of action. That's the crux of his entire position here.
     
  14. Sonny

    Sonny Member

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    Nice Post Kagy - I couldn't agree more. I would rather us remove Saddam and realize he was just a putz trying to make nukes out of salad bowls and "D" batteries than to get hit with a WOMD.
     
  15. rimbaud

    rimbaud Member
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    Most of what I have seen/read has been that Blair would support it, but the British people were mostly against it, as these two articles state. Oh well, no biggie.
     
  16. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    fair enough...i just read some article stating the opposite...that blair was no longer on board...
     
  17. Mango

    Mango Member

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    If they presented verified reports that Iraq had 8 SCUDS loaded with some nasty stuff & targeted toward your <b>beloved Israel</b>, would you fall into line with Bush and Blair?
     
  18. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    Sonny and Kagy,

    Again, I respect your positions and I think I understand them. But we do not shoot first and ask questions later. If we do, we can expect to be shot AT with greater frequency, not less. Following your logic, let's go after North Korea too. Also Iran. The Saudis are suspect too. I mean, better safe than sorry, right? Right. The debate here is not whether or not Saddam's a danger. The debate is whether we are safer attacking now (without international or even strong domestic support) or not.

    Max: It was extreme to compare Blair's strong words to Cheney's, but you get the pictuer. Blair had been wavering, now he's not. It's news, but it's hardly vindication for the Bush/Cheney position, when they still don't even have their own party solidly behind it. Support will rise and fall with the daily news. The Republican party, Congress, the American public and our allies will get behind this when and if a strong case is made. Blair is the babiest of baby steps. We need more of Europe, we need Russia and we need SOME of the Middle East, or this has a great chance of being the disaster that Republican foreign policy expects warn it will be.
     
  19. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    imagine if these reports are right...and that Iraq is assisting Al Qaeda, which American intelligence says are currently residing in large groups in northern Iraq....and with all of these intelligence reports we do absolutely nothing....or we just continue sanctions...and then one day we find smallpox in Miami...or we end up with a crude nuclear explosion here in the port of Houston...that's the disaster I'm far more wary of...and I'm certain it's the disaster this administration is far more wary of, because it's the disaster that history will judge them for.
     
  20. Sonny

    Sonny Member

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    Although a bit extreme and unlikely - I would back an attack against N. Korea and Iran. They are part of the Axis of Evil! :D
     

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