There is a lot of hypocrisy in the below article (and thus DD worthy) but what really caught my attention was the intro statement. The Bush Admin has told so many lies. How could anyone be blamed for not believing the "saved European lives" line? The fact that Rice made this a public statement also leads me to believe that this just another PR attempt by the Bush Admin. I am not holding my breath on any collaboration of this story by European leaders. Rice Says Intel Thwarted Attacks in Europe Dec 5, 10:03 AM (ET) By ANNE GEARAN WASHINGTON (AP) - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice turned the tables on European critics of tough U.S. tactics in the war on terror Monday, maintaining that intelligence gathered by the CIA has saved European as well as American lives. Responding for the first time in detail to the outcry over reports of secret CIA-run prisons in European democracies, Rice said the United States "will use every lawful weapon to defeat these terrorists." But in remarks delivered as she got ready to leave on a trip to Europe, she steadfastly refused to answer the underlying question of whether the United States had CIA-operated secret prisons there. "We cannot discuss information that would compromise the success of intelligence, law enforcement, and military operations. We expect other nations share this view," Rice said in a statement at suburban Andrews Air Force Base, Md. President Bush has denied that the United States engages in torture in the war against terrorists, but Rice's statements Monday represented the most detailed public comment the administration has yet offered on this vexing issue. Information gathered by U.S. intelligence agencies from a "very small number of extremely dangerous detainees," the secretary said, and has helped prevent terrorist attacks and saved lives "in Europe as well as in the United States and other countries." Reports of the existence of the secret prisons has caused a trans-Atlantic uproar. The European Union has asked the Bush administration about these reports. By suggesting whatever the United States did had the cooperation of European nations, Rice may have imposed pressure on their governments to explain to their people whether they violated national or international laws. And that could make Rice's stops in Europe even more difficult. "It is up to those governments and their citizens to decide if they wish to work with us," she said, "and decide how much sensitive information they can make public." "They have a sovereign right to make that choice," she said. Britain, which holds the revolving presidency of the EU, sent a two-paragraph letter to Washington late last month demanding more information about reports that the CIA detained and interrogated terrorism prisoners in Soviet-era compounds in Eastern Europe. In Germany, her first stop, a government spokesman, Ulrich Wilhelm, said his government had a list of moe than 400 overflights and landings by planes suspected of being used by the CIA. He told reporters "we are hoping that all of the facts will be discussed" by Rice with Chancellor Angela Merkel. Rice said the United States does not permit or tolerate torture under any circumstances. "The United States has fully respected the sovereignty of other countries that have cooperated in these matters," the secretary said. "The United States is a country of laws. My colleagues and I have been sworn to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. ... The United States must protect its citizens." The reference to sovereignty implies that any European democracies that may have provided secret prisons did so willingly. "So now before the next attack," Rice said, "we should all face the hard choices that democratic governments face." Human rights organizations and legal groups, both in the U.S. and abroad, have accused the United States of allowing a practice known as "rendition to torture," in which suspects are taken to countries such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia where harsh interrogation methods are used. Rice did say the United States has long participated in the movement of terror suspects between countries. European governments have expressed outrage over reports of a network of secret Soviet-era prisons in Eastern Europe where detainees may have been harshly treated and that flights carrying al-Qaida prisoners went through European airports. In Berlin, a government spokesman said Monday that Germany has a list of more than 400 overflights and landings by planes suspected of being used by the CIA that it plans to ask Rice about during her visit to the German capital. Several countries have denied they provided prison sites. If the United States did operate them, or is still doing so, the information would be classified. Rice's five-day itinerary includes a stop in Romania, a country identified as a likely site of a secret U.S.-run detention site. Romania denies it. The general issue of U.S. treatment of detainees in the war on terror has been an irritant in relations with Europe and other parts of the world since shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. It gained new immediacy last month with a Washington Post report about a network of CIA prisons overseas, including some in Europe, and claims by the advocacy group Human Rights Watch that it had tracked CIA flights into Eastern Europe. The European Union's justice commissioner said such prisons and detainee mistreatment would violate European human rights law, and he warned last week than any host countries could lose voting rights in the powerful 25-nation bloc. Secret prisons and many harsh methods of interrogation would be illegal on U.S. soil. It has been long assumed that the United States holds some of its more valuable and potentially dangerous captives - such as alleged terror mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed - outside the country and beyond the jurisdiction of U.S. courts. Rice's trip to Germany, Romania, Ukraine and Belgium is meant to build on generally improved relations between Europe and the United States after a period of strain over the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. The war remains widely unpopular in Europe, as does Bush.
I think it was FranchiseBlade that said in another thread something along the lines of "how can anyone trust what comes out of the mouths of anyone in this administration after being proven wrong on so many issues before." I agree, how are we to take anything they say seriously anymore?
Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm. Lisa: That's spacious reasoning, Dad. Homer: Thank you, dear. Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away. Homer: Oh, how does it work? Lisa: It doesn't work. Homer: Uh-huh. Lisa: It's just a stupid rock. Homer: Uh-huh. Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you? [Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money] Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock. [Lisa refuses at first, then takes the exchange]
i hope the german prosecutor and others in the EU that find this as repulsive as we do dont back down.
It is sad that they have lost such credibility. Not just on this issue, but on a whole mess of issues. They say "We Do Not Torture" Yet they threaten to veto any bill which states that we won't torture. They made wild exaggerations and claims about how many Iraqi troops were fully operational early on. Those claims were lowered, and lowered again. Finally in Bush's 'plan for victory' speech he made another claim on how many Iraqis are ready, and that number is being disputed. What is really sad is that this kind of thing hurts the troops. When the Bush administration makes that are true, nobody will believe them. So when Bush tells the truth about the troops doing good work, people won't believe it. When Bush won't take a stand to erase our recent bad marks regarding torture, our troops will face increased animosity, greater likelihood they will be treated badly when captured, it weakens our stance against other nations who employ the use of torture(like the Saddam used to). Our credibility in so many areas has been horribly damaged, it hurts our nation's standing, our troops, not to mention that it is just plain unethical.
Didn't want to start another thread so I thought I'd put this here. ------------------- Marines killed in Falluja were at promotion ceremony 06 Dec 2005 15:01:34 GMT Source: Reuters BAGHDAD, Dec 6 (Reuters) - Ten U.S. Marines killed near the Iraqi city of Falluja last week had been at a promotion ceremony and were not on foot patrol as initially reported, the U.S. military said on Tuesday. The Marines were in a disused flour mill on the outskirts of the city to celebrate the promotion of three soldiers, a military statement said. As the ceremony ended, the Marines dispersed and one of them is thought to have stepped on a buried pressure plate linked to explosives that caused the devastating blast. The death toll was the largest suffered by U.S. soldiers in Iraq in a single incident since August. Eleven Marines were wounded in the explosion, which the military initially blamed on "an improvised explosive device (IED) fashioned from several large artillery shells". The attack was particularly ill-timed for the Americans, coming just a day after President George W. Bush had given a speech outlining his strategy for Iraq and saying he would settle for "nothing less than complete victory". In November last year, Falluja witnessed the biggest battle since the U.S. invasion of 2003. Dozens of troops and hundreds of Iraqis were killed in the city, 50 km (30 miles) west of Baghdad, as the Americans tried to bring it under control. http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LON647317.htm
If they've already thwarted these attacks, why not let us know about them? Just vaguely referring to "attacks" doesn't cut it. For all we know theis could be from totally unreliable sources or attacks that thwarted the likes of the airline shoe-bomber. Until Condi & Co. can produce some tangible examples and evidence, their own lack of credibility undermines their case.
