Brian Grant

HOOP-T,
I'd like to have him, too, but I wouldn't lose anything for him that I didn't want to nor would I pay him more than the middle exemption. He's too damn injury prone.


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I would love to have grant on the team. Maybe we can trade Drew, plus our pick for Grant.

DaDakota

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B.Grant Myths

1. He is injury prone. Sorry, but he had two episodes this year and one very brief injury last year. The two this year were related and are a testament to his desire to get back at it too soon. Frankly, he is overused at times as the 4/5 defensive stopper and he is fearless. Hence, he goes toe to toe with anyone. (If Rasheed did half the D, and took it to the limit with his opponents like BG does, took some calls for the team, instead of getting 37 techs everytime someone bigger than him hard fouls him, he would have more respect in the league and unfortunately probably be considered "injury prone" too. Give me a player that gives 100% every shift. Plays way above average Defense. Average offense with bursts of above average scoring. Does not complain. Can run the floor as good as any 6'11 in the league. Give me Grant anyday.

2. He can be had for a couple of scrubs and a pick or two. Sorry, he will garner a hefty price this summer. I expect a 3-4 year deal worth $6.0 to $7.5 Million a year. If Portland lets him go, and it appears they will, as they have stopped talking to his agent, they will miss him terribly.(They may still sign and trade,but watch him walk on that.) He's the one that makes the middle honest. I would love to see the +/- ratios with him on the floor.

My Fantasy

I would trade almost anyone except my core four (Francis/Mobes/Mooch/Shandon) to get him. And, that includes Cato and the Fizzard.

 

popeye,

I've gotta disagree with you on both of these points.

1. Brian Grant has played in 196 of a possible 293 games over the last 4 years. That's an average of 54 games a year or 67% of the games. That's a fact not a myth.

2. Grant is currently making $7.6M/yr and it's his option on whether or not to become a free agent. It's not a matter of Portland letting him go, it would have to be his choice.

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Popeye, I think the only way Grant gets his salary above 5 million per season outside of staying in Portland is through a sign and trade. There are too many even more explosive and younger FA stars out there and not enough big-money FA spots available with under-the-salary-cap teams. Further, Chicago, one of the primary possibilities, already has Elton Brand and will likely draft another big person--I see them pursuing guards or a small forward and having little interest Brian Grant. I guess if Duncan, Hill, McGrady, and Jones stay put, it is possible he could wind up in Orlando, but I don't see that happening. I am guessing the Clips are the other team under the cap and I really don't see him going there even with big money thrown his way.

So unless Grant wants to take the middle-class exemption on an existing very good team (he would have his pick of the litter then, he sure would round out the Lakers) with latter huge money promised, he will have to do a sign and trade. I do agree with you he won't come that cheap, but I think you might be able to get him slightly under market because Portland may feel they have to trade him or lose him for nothing (especially if it possibly to a rival like the Lakers). Drew or KT + #9 + our trade leftover I think could create a 5.5 million slot for him (reasonable for Grant), and might be in the ballpark for Portland as well or alternately Mo Taylor, or a 3-way with these parties.

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I would like to answer each of the posts but I have to work sometime( ) ....

Whe talking about "injury prone" a couple of things must be understood.

1. B Grant's injuries come from hard play, some may even say excessive hard play. He was a bruiser in 94-95 and 95-96 playing 80/80 games and 78/80 games respectively.

2. It started in 1996-97 with a severly torn rotator (shoulder) cuff which required surgery and he missed all but 24 games. His recovery rolled into the following year and he ended up playing 61 of the following (97-98) 82 game schedule. Keep in mind One Injury so far.

3. In 1999 (in the 98-99 season) he had a fractured leg that was listed as a "stress fracture" but he played 48 of 50 games.

4. This past year he played in 63 of 82 games with "aggravated injuries". * Note: The Portland Trailblazers were so deep in all positions since 1999 that B Grant was "placed" on IR in a lot more conditions than really was necessary. He in fact was just not needed on occasion as Rasheed who took the club to the mat over playtime was "guaranteed" some PT. Also J O'neal was targeted to be the second off the bench after Rasheed. Although this may not offer any tangible evidence, we are comparing games dressed to play versus games he was "injured" and thus extrapolate the term "injury prone" from the difference.

The Comparisons

Conceding that the original shoulder injury was devastating to his games played and took a long time to recover let's compare the three most recent years (assuming that would be used to imply "injury-prone" as a recent(last three years) injury prone.

Over that same period of greatest concern (97-98 to 99-00) the following players had the following games totals. You can also bet they were inserted into the lineup as soon as possible too, as their bench would be considered not as deep as Portland's.

B. Grant ... 61/82 48/50 63/82 Total 172/216

K.Cato ... 74/82 43/50 65/82 Total 183/216

K. Bryant ... 79/82 50/50 66/82 Total 195/216

Mo.Taylor ... 71/82 46/50 62/82 Total 179/216
(Only 7 more games than Brian "injury prone" Grant!)

Shaq Oneal... 60/82 49/82 79/82 Total 189/216
(You want to be the one to call Shaq "injury prone" because his 189 is only 16 games over a 3 year period compared to Brian "injury prone" Grant's totals?)

C.Barkley ... 68/82 42/50 20/82 Total 130/216
(even if we forget this season and include the 96-97 season Charles still only has 53/82 games played then for a total of 163/216)


[This message has been edited by popeye (edited May 01, 2000).]

 

Popeye,
I see your point. But he has been hurt, and I don't thing a running offense will help him. Apparently you favor obtaining Grant this summer. I'd like to see that, too, but I wouldn't pay him what he thinks he's worth.

What kind of contract would you draw up for him, and what kind of performance do you think he's capable of in a starting role when healthy?

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1. Portland does not want anything we have in a trade. Why take Walt or Carlos or Cato back? They do not need Drew. They can't use Bullard.

Therefore Grant would have to come via a three way trade or an open Free Agent signing. Open FA signings will be hard for us this year because we are limited in what we can offer.

So now we are talking a trade to us in a three way using our $4.5M exemption. My guess is that they will keep that exemption (or a sizable portion of it, as it can be peiced out) for other need areas.

I think he is ghoing to want $7Million. It will take $ 5 to 6 Million for the Rockets to sign him in my opinion.

2. We should get him as a defensive stopper. Especially if we end up with Cato still on the roster.

I am of the opinion that this Rockets team needs the four spot to be an effective offensive threat (not necessarily a bigtime scorer, but enough to pull a defender anytime he is in the hole, who can assist and set picks,etc... ), but by far the most important ingredient is a defensive wall with lots of all-around abilities like close prevent D, rebounds, steals, physical "bang" presence, blocks, beautiful boxouts, etc... . This describes Grant perfectly.

This is the same traits as PJ Brown who I feel (again my opinion) is the best all around young power forward out there (if you do not count Zo), but unfortunately would take an armed robbery attempt to get him from Riley. {See my post on the Draft and Miami NOT having any picks until #52 this year in the Lottery section.)

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"Let me get this straight .... we pay him $4.5 million dollars a year to play 82 games right? And, the other guy we pay $6 or $7 Million a year to stop the other team from scoring and maybe to score once in a while too!" ......... Popeye's darling sweetpea attempting to figure out WizBang and CaveInTo's role on the Rockets.

 

True Aelliot, but Portland does not have to re-up when Grant's contract expires. SO, call it letting him go, call it whatever, Portland does not have to sign him once he is a free agent.

I'm assuming that we're talking about this off-season,right? Grant's contract doesn't expire this year. He simply has an out clause that will allow him opt out of his contract now (Same as Shaq had last year). If he decides he wants to stick with his current deal, then there's no resigning for Portland to do, his current deal just keeps going.

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I really wouldn't want PJ if he cost us very much. He is no Spring Chicken at Popeyes, he turns 31 his October (at least according to ESPN). At least Grant is 2+ years younger. I much prefer Ratlif to either, though I know he is pretty much unattainable.

Sailorman, what do you think Grant will fetch on the open market. I do think his last couple of games have about doubled his worth, but there is a restricted amount of top dollar free agent contracts out there for a much more ample supply of free agent stars and superstars. Unless the younger more offensive gifted stars stay put, I don't see Grant in the big money free agent sweepstakes.

I do agree Grant would be a terrific addition. But what team out there would offer much more than say a modest younger player (say Drew or KT) and a very good draft pick (#9). I am sure the last thing the Blazers want to see 1) him leaving for nothing 2) him leaving for nothing to play for the Lakers, Wolves or Suns for the middle-class exemption. If Grant wants out the Blazers will have to sign and trade to get anything for him and keep him from a chief rival, IMO. Also, if Grant see's they will sign and trade him to the Clippers, he may just refuse to sign in the first place and pick who he wants to play for at less money (again a situation the Blazers don't want). Depending on the what Grant says to the the Blazers and other teams (e.g., I want out), the Blazers don't have that much power because he can opt out of his contract (like with SA freedom last year).


[This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited May 01, 2000).]

 

B. Grant ... 61/82 48/50 63/82 Total 172/216

K.Cato ... 74/82 43/50 65/82 Total 183/216

K. Bryant ... 79/82 50/50 66/82 Total 195/216

Mo.Taylor ... 71/82 46/50 62/82 Total 179/216
(Only 7 more games than Brian "injury prone" Grant!)

Shaq Oneal... 60/82 49/82 79/82 Total 189/216
(You want to be the one to call Shaq "injury prone" because his 189 is only 16 games over a 3 year period
compared to Brian "injury prone" Grant's totals?)

C.Barkley ... 68/82 42/50 20/82 Total 130/216
(even if we forget this season and include the 96-97 season Charles still only has 53/82 games played then for a
total of 163/216)

Those aren't really valid comparisions.

Bryant and Cato came up on very good teams. I'll bet that the majority of the games where they didn't play were DNPCD, not from injury. Far as I remember the only real injury that Kobe had was the broken wrist this year.

As for Mo Taylor, that's no shock. Here's a guy that refused to get off a team bus, because he didn't get traded. Are you surprised that he's missed games? He's been on the IR at least once or twice every year.

Shaq was injury prone for the previous three years, simply because he was too heavy and not in the best of condition. That was one of the first things that Phil Jackson told O'Neal when he took over. Of course, he was usually out with a pulled muscle (except for the Geiger hatchet job), nothing that affected his game when he came back. Grant has played in many games over the last few years (all of this year) at a much lower level due to injury. Also, Grant has never averaged over 31.5 mpg for a season in his whole career, where Shaq is up in the high 30's (40 mpg this year).

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We are talking about three(3) things,now. This is getting confusing.

Quantity of minutes as an indicator of worth/value.

Let's face it if that was all it was about, then Hakeem's minimual 100 games or so over the last three years makes him worth peanuts compared to say, any journeyman benchwarmer in the league, who spent more time on the court at buckettime than Dream.

Number of Games Listed to Play as an indicator of injury prone.

As I attempted to make my point that BG is NOT injury "prone", I attempted to recount how BG's career had a problem with a reconstruct on a shoulder, then having a decent year and then PlayTime becoming a factor NOT injury. He was getting platooned with Wallace, Cato and ONeal. Then,the next year after Rasheed has his way and the team gets rid of Cato, but the team pushes Jermaine O'Neal to be platooned with Grant. And, because he is the future, ONeal has first option.

Even a perfectly healthy Grant would have suffered almost the same amount of playtime defecit in my estimation.

Excuses!!!!

Was BG injured? Yep,sure was. The fact that Shaq or anyone else is put forth as a better player, or played more minutes per game, or scored more points per game or any other comparison still doesn't answer the question of: What are you using to measure injury "prone"?

The number of seperate incidents? The effect on your teams success? The number of games you did not play? Or the number of games you did not play BECAUSE you were actually injured?

My obvious contention is that he is NOT injury prone. That because of the reason already alluded to, he was injured twice and had one relapse of a previous injury in three seasons. I attempted to point out, that given the same comparisons, Kobe and Shaq amoung others also lost several games in the last three years, but no label of injury prone was postulated. I attempted to point out that Portland was deep at the bench, and could "afford" to sit BG out at anytime without jepoardizing team wins. I theorized that this wiould not have been the case with Shaq, Kobe, Barkley etc.... in the comaprison. My God if we want to start an injury prone tag, lets pick Mr.Theo Ratliff, everytime he was ready to come back this past year he got sidelined with a different ailment. Made me think he had Massenburg's desease. LOL

aelliot wrote: "...Shaq was injury prone for the previous three years, simply because he was too heavy and not in the best of condition .... "

I don't even want to go there, but to be giving that as a reason in defense of Shaq dropping some games due to injury would basically be saying Shaq's seemingly three year laziness is a better excuse than Grant's giving 110% every shift/everynight catching up on him physically after the last thgree or four years.

In short, I feel as I did when we started this, that labelling him "injury prone" was a disservice to him, especially if it was going to be used to imply he was NOT a good fit for this Rockets team.

Money

I was aware of the option, but from what the industry is saying, he has indicated he will look elsewhere. I agree he may be asking for more than what is out there($7Million). But hell so is Taylor, etc.... BG's options: 1. Stay where he is unhappy with his playtime for one more year. 2. Leave outright as a Free Agent and sign a deal that will be around (under/over) his present deal(my guess $5-6Million/year), but in a situation or over a period of time(3-4 year deal) he wishes. 3. Leave but allow Portland to arrange a trade that will mutally benefit them both.



[This message has been edited by popeye (edited May 01, 2000).]

 

I have to agree with Popeye on this one. I am a very big proponent of bringing Brian Grant to the Rockets. Let me admit though that I am very partial towards players like Brian Grant, Bo Outlaw, etc. that show incredible work ethic, desire and determination. These "work horses" add so many intangibles to a team that lead to wins, but get unrecognized on the stat sheet.

I feel that Grant's slow start would not have appeared as severe had he received more PT to work into the rotation. On the Blazer team, there is just so much depth that if a player does not produce quickly, they turn to the next man. The Blazers ofcourse have a major option in Wallace that got the bulk of the PT at the 4 spot.

In basketball terms, Grant is a perfect fit for the Rockets frontcourt. A 6-9 260 PF that rebounds well, sets solid screens, runs the court and possesses some ability to score down low (but wont be a paint clogger). Most importantly though, he will provide the hustle and dirty work. His quickness laterally is still very much intact even after his injury. If you watch Grant closely you will notice how good he is in terms of team defense. He is one of the few players I have seen that can double team the guard on the screen and roll and then turn around and chase down the big man getting a hand in his face. He covers the court extremely well on the defensive end.

Pretty much the only way the Rockets could get Grant is in a sign and trade deal and with Portland not really needing anything the Rockets have, a three way deal would have to occur. This is purely speculation, but I was discussing this with a Blazers fanatic that I frequently talk hoops with. His opinion is that if Gary Payton demands a trade, the Blazers would be very interested as he could be the final piece for their championship puzzle. The price would likely be steep (Grant and Stoudamire), but he felt would be worthwhile.

So a question to Popeye.... Has there been any word on the Rockets stepping in as a third party in a Payton to Portland deal and does this deal even have any chance? Seattle would be re-building sans Payton and could use a package including the 9th pick, Bryce Drew, Kenny Thomas maybe Kelvin Cato etc.

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Popeye,
You are answering in circles. People are using OBJECTIVE indicia of injury (missed games, etc.); you are either guessing or relying on "inside information" (coaches hiding him on the IR). In any event, he is hurt now, and he was hurt last year and the year before. I would rather not gamble that he will nit miss significant games due to injury next year. Even if he plays hurt, I don't want that.

Please do not think that I am trying to be a jerk, but it's clear that you REALLY want Brian Grant. I'd rather spend money on a small forward due to what I see as a logjam at power forward (correct me if I'm wrong). If we can get grant for a buck or two above our exception, then I'd jump for him.

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Wanna play in the clutchcity.net game? Got some ideas? E-mail me at philip_w_moore_jr@hotmail.com and I'll send a batch e-mail with details as they develop.

 

Listen...It is clear to me that Grant will never wear a headband.

case closed...

 

He already does... just for the Blazers.

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Popeye,

I guess we differ in that you're counting the number of separate injuries that Grant had and I'm looking at the amount of time that he hasn't been healthy. To me it really doesn't matter if the guy misses alot of games over four years with one, two or three injuries. The fact still is that he hasn't been healthy for much of the last 4 years. If you stricktly go by number of injuries, then Sabonis has really only been hurt twice. The problem is that those injuries affected his play for the next 8 or so years.

Anyway, it's a moot point because I don't see anyway that we end up with Grant. In fact, I'll go ahead and predict that Grant is still in Portland next year.



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