Bottom Line: Do you trade Hakeem and/or Charles?

Good points Clutch. During a debate, it is always best to head off the opposition, before they jump in. LOL

All valid points. All answered with your usual aplomb.

Couple of things.
1. Charles is the most likely candidate for trade. His loyalty to Houston is not as entrenched as Hakeem's. And visa versa. He will possibly still play with the other teamif traded. Hakeem very likely would retire outright, or threaten to. So no team will take a chance on him.
2. For the above reasons, the best scenario is probably Charles selecting a team he would like to go to, then us attempting to arrange it.LA Lakers???
3. I am not sold on this season being done based on the first twelve games. I see some improvement and will expect more. Twenty games or a so,will give us a better idea of where we are going.
4. I cannot see RT pulling the trigger on a trade of Hakeem or Charles, especially as unwilling participants. He may have to be overruled by the other two (CD and Les) and that would have some far reaching implications. So this will not be an easy decision, regardless of the outcome.
5. RT and CD may have some trade possibilities already. They are both reluctant to part with certain individual players, but a threat of "either that or we start looking at Hakeem and Charles" may make them both rearrange their thinking somewhat.

Cheers.



[This message has been edited by popeye (edited November 23, 1999).]

 

I would love to be able to trade Barkley....wanted to ever since the Pippen trade went down, which was the minute we were out of contention, IMO.

I would trade Hakeem only at HIS request.

 

I have to agree with all the comments so far. My first thought was also Barkley to LA. The Rockets have no chance of derailing Portland, but a LA team with Barkley just might

 

Damn! DAYAMN!!!

Clutch, I never thought I'd be hearing this from you, but I understand. Now, let's tackle the question.

Do you trade Hakeem and/or Charles?

1. The time to trade Hakeem was during the offseason with the Raptors trade that Rudy nixed. I think Hakeem's trade value has gone down since the start of the season, and I do not think we would get very much for him. What we should do is try to convince him to retire after this year or buy out the last year of his contract.

2. Trading Charles would bring more value, but what teams would take him knowing this is his last year? This would also lessen what we would get for him.

I think that the time to trade either or both has passed us by. Someone needs to convince Hakeem to retire after this season and not wait until next. I do feel, however, that both Hakeem and Charles should be coming off the bench rather than starting.

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Just Win Baby! More Than Twice!

 

Dang, Clutch. Who switched cereals on you this morning?

If we do this, let's do it rationally:

1. If you're gonna trade one of these guys for the reasons Clutch just laid out, the same reasons justify trading the other.

2. Name the teams where each guy fits best.

3. Draw up the various player combinations that match his salary, and pick the one you like best.

4. Send them to contenders -- but this problem will probably take care of itself, as it did with Scottie. Because their salaries are big, the only teams willing to take them on will be teams for whom they are the final piece of the puzzle.

Chuck to L.A. meets all these criteria.

 

We should NEVER, EVER, EVER trade Hakeem against his own will.

That would be downright disrespectful to this legend and it would be painful to watch the most versatile big man in the history of the game, play his last game in any other uni other than Rockets gear. I don't care if we are 2-80...let the Dream stay.

If Charles wants to go, then sure let him go somewhere else, though I doubt Barkley would request a trade like that. He doesn't really seem like the type to take the easy way out and quit on his team like Pippen did.

I would trade Charles if he wanted out, but he has more pride than that. He isn't the type to just walk out on a struggling team and roll to a championship. Hakeem? Hakeem is a Rocket for life.

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"Museum officials outside of Houston have reported an ancient artifact identified as "Rudy's Postup Plays - 1994" stolen, as of November 2, 1999...officials urge residents to contact...

 

Barkley deserves to be traded so that he gets one more shot at a title. It would be the right thing to do and helps us out in the future.

 

Cabbage, what do you mean, Charles isn't that type? He's threatened to jump ship to a contender every off-season he's been here. He made up some stupid story about how Phoenix had disrespected him just so he could get traded to Houston. Are you sure about that?

 

RocketmanTex:

1. Please keep in mind that Hakeem retiring early, or us buying him out does not give us his salary for cap purposes. If it is merely having him on the floor that is the problem then he an be sat for the same effect.

2. I disagree that Hakeem is not tradeable. There are just NO quality big men out there today. New York would kill to get him. Indiana may be able to convince Bird to stay another year if Hakeem was on board. Look, Hakeem is a quality item and an asset to any team.The powers that be know this.Have you seen his last three games?

3. I disagree that Barkley's one year contract would make him a liability to trade. On the contrary. He offers a team a veteran who can, and has proven he can produce at this age, AND the opportunity to dump him or keep him next year if they can convince him to stay. How many managers or coaches have had to put up with Charles over the last several years who said: " I can't stand that guy out there, but dang, I wish we had him. Even for one year." My guess is quite a few.

JVoss

I agree the most "knee-jerk" reaction (and most likely spot) is he would end up would be LA Lakers. But think of this for a moment. Larry Brown wants to unload Ratlif (maybe Hill) and Hughes in Philly. They are trying to improve the gate receipts. Charles ending his career where he started it in a Sixer uniform, with a coach he likes! (Charles has said many times, I will enter the HOF as a Sixer) Charles maybe as an executive in Philly. Charles maybe as a consultant/assistant to Calipari(who will be coach next year) in Philly. Mmmmmm. Just speculation,but the possibilities are awsome,folks.




[This message has been edited by popeye (edited November 23, 1999).]

 

I really believe that he has threatened to leave Houston every year for the good of the team (why am I defending the guy I have been so critical of?.. ).

I firmly believe that Charles' ego will keep any team from succeeding, but with that said, he is anything but a quitter. I really doubt he would give up like this, knowing people would say, "Charles Barkley just dumped his old team and hitched a ride with the Lakers to the Championship."

Hey, I wish it would happen. It would be the best thing for our future if we traded Charles right now, but it just isn't gonna happen.

 

But on another note: (sorry this is a bit off the topic, Clutch, just wanted to point this out.)

Those of you who still think we can win it all now, (POPEYE, LOL), what do you think about this?

"How soon before Rod Strickland, openly rebelling against Gar Heard's demand for discipline, gets dealt?

Rod is a very tough point guard to defend, and a witty veteran. Say we move Francis to the 2, Shandon to the 3, and Rod to the 1..(?). It would be a problem putting together a $10 million package, but if we could, would you go for it?

If you want to win now, some names to look at are Rider, Strickland, Sprewell, Richmond...

I have already ruled out Rider seeing that he is a cancer, and we don't have enough to get Spree. Richmond doesn't have any game left. Rod though, I think could be had..

 

The way things are going, CB might request a trade openly like Pippen did, which helps the Rockets in two ways, first, teams can get him for scrubs and second round picks knowing he wants to leave. No team would give up anything substantial knowing this is his last year. So the Rockets have a chance to pick up some rough gems like Carlos Rogers in the scrubs. Hey Scott Pollard of Seattle sounds great, or Ameachi of Orlando.

Secondly, with Chuck gone, the Rockets would have less fire and sink to the bottom, hopefully get the No.1 lottery pick and then pick up the next Wilt Chamberlain, the 7-6 Chinese center Yao Min with 70%FG, only to know that he is not allowed to play NBA unless trading Hakeem to China's national team through the WTO.

 

I'd sit them both down and ask them. Say, "It doesn't look like this is our year. If either or both of you would like to play for a contender, we'll facilitate the trade--as long as we get some youth and athletecism--or picks--in return."

 

I agree the most "knee-jerk" reaction (and most likely spot) is he would end up would be LA Lakers. But think of this for a moment. Larry Brown wants to unload Ratlif (maybe Hill) and Hughes in Philly. They are trying to improve the gate receipts. Charles ending his career where he started it in a Sixer uniform, with a coach he likes! (Charles has said many times, I will enter the HOF as a Sixer) Charles maybe as an executive in Philly. Charles maybe as a consultant/assistant to Calipari(who will be coach next year) in Philly. Mmmmmm. Just speculation,but the possibilities are awsome,folks.

Whoa....Holdon there Popeye, you have absolutely got to be BSing me if you think there is even a snowball's chance in hell that Barkley could end up where he started! Sure, I would love to bring Rat in here to add to the young nucleus, but their is absolutely NO WAY Philly takes Barkley on.

Just too many reasons:

*First of all, if Iverson has indeed changed, like you pointed out to me, and he is more of a leader, you think he is going to go for a guy like Barkley? Charles can't even deal with Francis' shooting, you think he is going to stay out of the post for Iverson?
*Theo Ratliff is just what the Sixers need. A young big man who knows his role, plays defense, and compliments Iverson. Barkley is exactly what the Sixers DONT need. A guy to come in, and clash with Iverson. Right now, that Sixers team, outside of Hughes, has relative harmony. Everyone knows their role, and they know that this is Iverson's team. The addition of Barkley would totally disrupt that.
*Besides the only thing that keeps the small backcourt (Snow, Iverson) working is the presence of two strong, defensive minded big men in Geiger and Ratliff. Add Barkley, and that lineup is ruined from the foundation.

I would love to trade Barkley for Ratliff, but even if Barkley wanted to return there, there is no way the Sixers would welcome him back. Even if they did, no way that decision gets out alive past Iverson. He is determined to win the Big One, and does not need any distractions. This is ALlen's team, and everyone in that lockerroom is aware of that, and they know their roles. They have a minute problem in Hughes right now. They don't need to add to it by bringing in Charles.

 

4 out of 5 Rockets players agree: playing decent defense is important (guess who the 5th one is)

This seems like a no-brainer to me. Condemn Hakeem all that you want, I doubt that you could find 5 centers in the league right now, who are as good as him on both ends of the floor. If you can convince him to play within a certain role, then he still is one of the most valuable assets on this team.

Chuck on the other hand has the heart, but as the old saying goes, "You can't teach heighth." At a hair over 6'4" he can't hold most of the SFs in the league, much less the PFs. In addition, he has as much problem controlling his ego as he does his weight (No please God don't pull up for another 3 Chuck!) I just don't believe that it's any small coincidence that the first year that we imported Chuck was the first year that we started going downhill.

Send him to the Lakers or any team that wants to clear up $9 mil in salary cap next year when (if) he retires.

 

I'm sure these conversations are already going on. Dream and Chuck can see first-hand what is realistic and what is not regarding this season.

I don't see any way at this point that Houston can go all the way, as much as I had hoped they would gel in time. I see way too much confusion and lack of chemistry. Since Chuck only has this year left, or at the most next year, to go for a championship ring, I think he might prefer to go to a championship contender, and perhaps is already having these discussions, in his discouragement. I also believe he is loyal to the Rockets, and if he felt that he could bring some future talent to the Rockets in the process, he'd discuss this with the head office.

Dream is still one of the best centers in the NBA, and I don't think Cato can replace him, as much as I like him. I believe Dream has a number of years left in him, especially if he adjusts away from the basket. If he wants to stay and work with our rebuilding team, we could be championship caliber in another couple years. We'd need to move Cato to replace Chuck, perhaps Rogers at the 3, and pick up a future center to train under Akeem.

I don't know if Anderson or Cat are going to cut it at shooting guard. The idea of Chuck to Philly for Hughes and filler would be good, Indiana for Bender or Harrington, Croshere and filler, New York for Camby or Sprewell and filler, Miami for Outlaw or Brown and filler, LA for Rice and filler ... all these could fill missing holes for us and rebuild for the future.

If this is going to be our rebuilding year, then let's make a trade or two, use the year to develop a new offense and develop players, and get as high in the lottery as we can to get another great player to add to the mix.

In another 15 or 20 games, it'll be pretty clear which way we have to go.

 

Cabbage: I said Olajuwon for either Joe Smith or Tim Thomas. You highlighted Barkley. Are you trying to change the deal? Because I see no reason why Minnesota would want Barkley. They are pretty set at the forward position.

By the way, the Joe Smith thing really has possibilities. Joe Smith has a great comeback year last year for the T-Wolves and now, he barely plays because the T-Wolves, understandably, want to play Wally Szerbiak.
Does anyone have any idea what Joe Smith's contract is like??? Because I would like to keep him for a couple of years to see how he plays. In any event, he would make a great addition to the Rockets.

 

BAD IDEA

This isn't about loyalty; this is about precedence. Clutch, it is very short-sighted of you to steer the franchise that direction. Unloading veterans right before retirement is not something a class organization would do. How does that effect current moral? How does that effect our future players look at this club? Do you think Francis would have come to this club w/o Dream and Barkley here?

As for your comment:

"If we're going to suck, then lets suck hard. Lets clear out the older guys we're relying on too much, give the young guys a chance to play and prepare for that high first round pick."

We are giving the young guys a chance to play. And Cato gets to learn from Dream. Barkley gets to teach Francis how to have a cool head and a strong mental game. Those are intangibles you are not considering.

The other thing is: if this does continue, as you say, we will get a high pick anyhow!!!

So, what you really are saying is, you think this team will improve its record considerably if left alone, you just don't want us to improve at the expense of a high draft pick.

Admit it Clutch...this is a thread about you wanting to prevent us from getting better this season...you want to sacrifice this season. And you want to sacrifice the integrity of a class organization. Bring on Ruport Murdoch!!!

repent...this is silly.