Both candidates made factual errors.

FranchiseBlade · Oct 1, 2004

The one that gets me is Bush claiming that Kerry's idea of direct talks with N. Korea would drive China out of the equation. The fact is that China has requested the U.S. to hold direct talks with N. Korea in addition to the multi-lateral talks which is exactly what Kerry proposed.

By Glenn Kessler
Updated: 11:20 a.m. ET Oct. 1, 2004
President Bush and Sen. John F. Kerry made few major factual errors in last night's debate, although on occasion they stretched the truth or left out inconvenient facts — or may have confused viewers as they spoke in policy shorthand.

advertisementBush, for instance, hailed the coming presidential election in Afghanistan, saying that the fact that 10 million people had registered to vote was a "phenomenal statistic." But Human Rights Watch this week said that figure was inaccurate because of multiple registration of many voters. In a lengthy report, the respected organization also documented how human rights abuses are fueling a pervasive atmosphere of repression and fear in many parts of the country, with voters in many areas having little faith in the secrecy of the balloting and often facing threats and bribes from militia factions.

Kerry repeatedly stated that U.S. forces allowed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden to escape during the battle at Tora Bora in 2001 because the administration "outsourced" the task to Afghan militia leaders. This probably overstates the case — it is unclear if bin Laden was at Tora Bora — but it is correct that the Pentagon relied on Afghan proxy forces in an effort to minimize the potential loss of U.S. military lives.

• A primer for the debate
• Election may hinge on debatesAfter the Tora Bora fight, as local Afghan militias began withdrawing, considering their part of the war over, top Pentagon authorities appeared ready to send hundreds of conventional ground forces into the White Mountains to press the search for bin Laden and associates. That plan was nixed in favor of offers of money, weapons and cold-weather clothing to sustain Afghan cooperation.

The two men also disputed whether former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein would have been stronger if the United States had not launched an invasion. This is a question that will be long debated by historians, and the answer may never be clear. Bush said it was necessary to disarm Hussein — but the Bush administration invaded Iraq because it believed Hussein was concealing stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction and no such weapons have ever been found. Some post-invasion reports have argued that Hussein retained the capability to restart his weapons programs, but many experts consider that doubtful as long as he remained under U.N. sanctions and inspections.

Leap of faith
However, when Kerry says Hussein would have been continually weakened, he is making a leap of faith that the U.N. Security Council would have been willing to continue a sanctions regime that was increasingly unpopular with key nations.

Kerry suggested that the United States has spent $200 billion on Iraq, largely because it supplied the bulk of the troops. This is an exaggeration, because it combines the amount already spent — about $120 billion — with money that is expected to be spent in the coming year or requested by the administration.

But Bush also made an error when he corrected Kerry to say he forgot to mention Poland supplied forces when the invasion began. Kerry said there were three countries —Great Britain, Australia and the United States — and Bush said, "actually he forgot Poland."

Poland later supplied troops, and actually commanded a zone of Iraq. But they were not part of the original ground invasion. And although Bush said there are 30 countries in the coalition, he neglected to say that about a half dozen countries have withdrawn their troops in recent months.

‘Pottery Barn rule’
At another point, Kerry said "Secretary of State Colin Powell told this president the Pottery Barn rule: if you break it, you fix it." This anecdote comes from Bob Woodward's book, "Plan of Attack," but actually, Woodward reported that Powell privately talked with aides about the rule that if "you break it, you own it." He did not say this to the president — and it turned out Pottery Barn does not have such a rule.

On North Korea, Bush charged that Kerry's proposal to have direct talks with North Korea would end the six-nation diplomacy that the administration has pursued over Pyongyang's nuclear ambitions. Kerry has said he would continue the six-party talks as well, but Bush said direct talks with North Korea would drive away China, a key player in the negotiations.

But each of the other four countries in the talks have held direct talks with North Korea during the six-party process — and China has repeatedly asked the Bush administration to talk directly with North Korea. Moreover, the Bush administration has talked directly to North Korean diplomats on the sidelines of the six-party talks, and Powell met with his North Korean counterpart over the summer.
_© 2004 The Washington Post Company
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6144991/?GT1=5472
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wizkid83 · Oct 1, 2004

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
The one that gets me is Bush claiming that Kerry's idea of direct talks with N. Korea would drive China out of the equation. The fact is that China has requested the U.S. to hold direct talks with N. Korea in addition to the multi-lateral talks which is exactly what Kerry proposed.
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Honestly I don't China would get involved. The current government cares about economics and thats it. Make the country rich, feed the people, it's a job well done. Besides, they know that a crazy N. Korea is a good thing for China, since it'll definitely be a trump card in any negotiation, or getting into any international organization like WTO and rest of the world would be a lot less likely to focus on China's own political problems. They know that even if N. Korea has all the missles in the world, it probably wont be pointed at China. The only way China would get invovled with N. Korea is if they feel they can get a get Taiwan in the process.

FranchiseBlade · Oct 1, 2004

Originally posted by wizkid83
Honestly I don't China would get involved. The current government cares about economics and thats it. Make the country rich, feed the people, it's a job well done. Besides, they know that a crazy N. Korea is a good thing for China, since it'll definitely be a trump card in any negotiation, or getting into any international organization like WTO and rest of the world would be a lot less likely to focus on China's own political problems. They know that even if N. Korea has all the missles in the world, it probably wont be pointed at China. The only way China would get invovled with N. Korea is if they feel they can get a get Taiwan in the process.
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But N. Korea has already been involved, and I don't think they want a crazy man with Nukes on their border. They might love him if he were in another part of the world, but on their door step is another thing.

I do agree that feeding their population and building their economy is priority number 1, but I don't think that concern has to lessen their involvement with talks regarding N. Korea.

Rockets2K · Oct 2, 2004

I dont agree that China doesnt care or shouldnt care about a madman with nuclear capabilities right outside their own house.

Their first priorities may be internal, but if they didnt care about NK...why would they be involved in the discussion already? They have been a player in talks with NK before now.

Your assertion doesnt make sense considering the facts as we know them at this time.

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Both candidates made factual errors.

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Both candidates made factual errors.

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