but what about Bags? I don't think Bagwell is a first balot HOF but looking at the other eligible players his first year it will be his best shot for a while. Anyway Biggio will go in five years from now and if I had to guess maybe Bagwell gets in 10-15 years down the road because he was good enough to be in the conversation as best first baseman during most of his playing days. What do ya'll think? Of course I know it would be great for the Stros to have them go in together but I'm not so sure that will happen.
Astrosdaily.com did a rough statistical comparison of Biggio among HoF second basemen. Man, I would *really* enjoy seeing one of Bagwell (of course, the Big Hurt would have to be included as well). I think he belongs in, but you're right that he doesn't have a very good "first ballot" case and the following years are a little stacked.
As much as I think Bidge is one of the greats, I disagree that he is a lock first ballot guy. Unless your name is Nolan Ryan, there is no such thing as a lock first ballot guy. He belongs in...and so does Bags. But I doubt they will get in on the first ballot. My guess is Bidge on the second ballot and Bags on the 3rd or 4th.
Biggio gets in first ballot; not to be ignorant, but who else would compete with him? And didn't ESPN do an article about potential future HOFers about 4 or 5 years ago in a Page 2? Bagwell's chances were rated higher than Biggio (of course Bagwell wasn't as useless at the time). Speaking of such, not sure why so many people are down on the chances for a guy like Smoltz; seems like a lock to me (not first ballot though).
I disagree; he's among the greatest 2nd basemen all time, even considering the late decline defensively and offensively. Well, let me quantify: he is inarguably (IMO) qualified as a first-ballot inductee; whether the writers who vote have their heads shoved in the sand is a whole other issue. Koufax? Ted Williams? Babe Ruth? Hank Aaron? Roger Clemens? Randy Johnson? Ripken? Joe Morgan. Bob Gibson. Lou Gehrig. There *is* such a thing IMO, and there are different levels of players who deserve in on their first ballot. Biggio belongs in his first year, but he's not in that super-elite class with Rogers Hornsby, Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams, and the Babe, et. al. And if he doesn't, it's a travesty that lies squarely on the shoulders of the writers who are responsible for casting the ballots.
It's a shame Bagwell didn't get some romantic number for a stat category to help his hall of fame chances. The power discrepancy between Bagwell and Biggio is obvious, but if you look at the 162 game averages, the only two contact stats that Biggio beats Bagwell on are hits (175 to 174) and doubles (38 to 37), and that is not counting this season, so those numbers might drop a little. Bagwell beats Biggio in average, bb/k ratio, and OBP. Not to mention that Bagwell was a slugger in one of the most cavernous pitchers' parks in baseball history for over half his career. Biggio has over four full seasons' worth of games on Bagwell. How many homers could Bagwell have hit in four seasons without his shoulder problems? 80? 100? I think they're both first ballot HOFers. As for the steroids issue, I don't think I've ever heard Bagwell's name mentioned in any steroids related story. He's never even been remotely connected. When Bagwell is up for induction, hopefully the voters will have forgotten about the "steroid era" a little bit. Oh yeah, and for the first three years of his career, Bagwell was hit by more pitches.
Allow me to clarify. I believe the Bidge should be in first ballot, no question. I just doubt it will go down that way. The writers seldom vote somebody in first ballot. Hell, even Nolan Ryan wasn't unanimous. Getting in on the first ballot has become fairly rare.
Biggio is an absolute lock. During his run to 3000 he was mentioned numerous times by different national writers as a first ballot hall of famer. I really didnt believe that he would be until I started reading all of the pub he was receiving. Biggio has some impressive career totals. Biggio also should have won the MVP in 1998. I know McGwire and Sosa were locked into their home run chase and all, but Biggio was the best player. If I remember correctly Biggio had 50 doubles and 50 steals that year.
Every member who got his 3,000th hit after 1943 has been a first ballot hall of famer. First Ballot: Cal Ripken Jr. Tony Gwynn Wade Boggs Paul Moliter Eddie Murray Dave Winfield George Brett Robin Yount Rod Carew Honus Wagner Ty Cobb Stan Musial Hank Aaron Willie Mays Roberto Clemente Al Kaline Lou Brock Carl Yastrzemski Not First Ballot: Tris Speaker Nap Lajoie Eddie Collins Paul Waner Cap Anson Not eligble yet: Rickey Henderson Rafael Palmeiro Craig Biggio Banned: Pete Rose The last time a member of the 3,000 hit club who wasn't a first ballot hall of famer was Paul Waner in 1952. He retired in 1945. Biggio is a definite first ballot hall of famer.
a-train i loved bagwell growing up and i still love how he played but the guy juiced. i don't have a problem with it but it's just a reality. he is very lucky to have avoided the whole steroid controversy but you just don't change your body that much without help. it's especially obvious when you see how much his body has deflated. i have been on 1-AD which is pretty close to steroids in a pill form and it made me go from skinny a 155 to a solid 180 in about a month. those gains were after i had tried everything else to gain mass. anyone who has used those kinds of drugs can tell you it's pretty clear bags was on something. that being said i think both are first ballot HOFs and biggio even more when compared to other 2Bs.
i understand what you're saying but you're being too pessimistic. while there are a few shady and/or dumb as **** hall of fame voters, biggio's case is air-tight. he won't get 100% because no one does but he'll get in first ballot easily. bagwell won't. i think he deserves to be there as much as biggio does, and will one day get in, but i'm not gonna make a guess on when. the steroid era probably hurts him a lot regardless of his name being ever mentioned.
you can place bidge alongside ripken, sandberg, gwynn statistically. well truthfully gwynn has better hitting numbers and rarely struck out, plus cal has his iron man untouchable record so they have obviously earned their first ballot but bidge has the hbp record and 2b's plus great fielding pctgs, no to mention the 3000. but bags, he won the mvp, roy and was close in mvp several other times, plus .540 slugging. other than that he didnt hit 500 hr's and career batting avg. is under .300. clearly a power hitter and i think he had enough power seasons in the 90s to be a second ballot.
One of the Chron blogs made a comparison between Biggio and Ryan Sandberg http://blogs.chron.com/unofficialscorer/ and according to that Biggio should be a lock. A couple of problems that I see might crop up is that 5 years from now the emotion of the run to 3,000 will be gone and Houston never seems to get the attention compared to other cities. It annoys the hell out of me but as far as national attention goes playing your whole career in Houston doesn't seem to help.
It's only rare for someone to get in on the first ballot because there aren't worthy players ever year. When a worthy player gets up for election, he makes it. Wade Boggs, Cal Ripken, Tony Gywnn, etc. Name a player in the last 20 years who SHOULD have been a first ballot guy and didn't get in? Baseball voters are very good at the HOF process with a few outliers. There are of course a handful of voters who say that since there has never been a unanimous guy before, they refuse to vote for someone on the first ballot. Oh well. Deserving guys still get in.
unfortunately, we're going to need esteemed, influential baseball writers to pump up bagwell's case because, as great as he was beyond his numbers (remembering he played for many years in the dome), he will pale in comparison to some of his contemporaries, rendering him more ordinary. and god forbid if justice is bagwell's champion. bill james rates him a 149.5 on his scale of HoF worthiness (with 100 being "likely Hall of Famer"). for 10 years, he was the best all-around 1B in baseball and he's the second-best NL 1B ever (behind puljos). i think he's a no-brainer, but it wouldn't shock me if fans/writers outside of houston didn't share that opinion.
Firstly, you don't know what Bagwell did or didn't do. It's not like he got big overnight. He "deflated" as you put it because he couldn't lift weights any more due to his shoulder. With or without roids, the body reacts quickly when it is not being worked. It is entirely possible to gain mass without drugs in an offseason. It is entirely possible to maintain it without drugs. You have to be a hard worker and do things the right way. I'm not saying he didn't, but you cannot say he definintely did it without any proof whatsoever. Is it possible? Yes. Do you or I know? Absolutely not.
Thank you. It is completely idiotic of anyone to dogmatically state that Bagwell did or did not. That said, he didn't.
