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Beware of governments granting the "right" to enter onerous lifelong contracts

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Hightop, May 16, 2012.

  1. Hightop

    Hightop Member

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    Think outside the bun.

    Gay Marriage, Like All Marriage, Not Worth Celebrating

    Thaddeus Russell | May 16, 2012

    Back in the days when there was an identifiable counter-cultural movement in the United States, feminists, gay activists, and much of the left identified the institution of marriage as the foundation of conservative American culture and therefore something to oppose, not seek. But now, with more and more gays gaining official permission to marry, the left is celebrating a right that it used to compare with the right to be imprisoned.

    Those who consider themselves to be the descendants of the counter-cultural left are hailing President Barack Obama’s sudden embrace of gay marriage as a great victory not just for equality and civil rights but also for freedom. Yet historically, those who invented and promoted legal marriage did so with the explicit purpose of restraining the liberty of all of us. Were Emma Goldman, Allen Ginsberg, and the drag queens who threw bricks at the cops at the Stonewall Inn alive today, they might well say that Americans have all become “the Man.”

    [​IMG]

    The idea that the state should promote, sanction, and regulate monogamous relationships gained currency in the 16th century as a reaction to Europe’s first sexual revolution. Public, group, and what we now call homosexual sex were commonplace, prostitution was rampant and generally unpunished, pornographic books and pamphlets were widely popular, and laws against adultery and divorce went unenforced. Martin Luther and other leaders of the Protestant Reformation seized upon marriage as a means though which to curb unchristian freedoms and bring about social order.

    Luther recognized that “he who refuses to marry must fall into immorality,” identified marriage as “the remedy against sin,” and demanded that all of humanity seek the cure “in order that fornication and adultery may be avoided as well as pollutions and promiscuous lusts.”

    Until then, the Church alone had recognized and overseen marriages, but Luther and the reformers wanted a more powerful and “worldly” enforcer of God’s laws. Marriage, they said, belonged under the purview of “temporal government,” which “restrains the un-Christian and wicked so that—no thanks to them—they are obliged to keep still and to maintain an outward peace.” Moved by these injunctions, governments across Protestant Europe seized control over marriage and instituted rules to enforce it.

    On this side of the Atlantic, shortly after the ratification of the Constitution, the newly-formed states, acting in their own professed self-interest, enacted laws that made it more difficult to end marriages. Typical was the view of Georgia state legislators, who in 1802 responded to their inability to stop the “dissolution of contracts founded on the most binding and sacred obligations” by drafting a law regulating divorce. According to the lawmakers, the “dissolution [of a marriage] ought not to be dependent on private will, but should require legislative interference; inasmuch as the republic is deeply interested in the private business of its citizens.”

    Other state governments followed that lead. By the end of the 19th century it was nearly impossible in all the states to dissolve a marriage unless one upheld what one historian has called “ideal spousal behavior” and one’s spouse was adulterous, sexually dysfunctional, or chronically absent. No longer could an unhappy wife or husband simply walk away from a marriage.

    American lawmakers in the 19th century widely concurred with the legal scholar Joel Prentiss Bishop, considered to be the “foremost law writer of the age” and the author of the then preeminent legal treatise on marriage, who considered “too absurd to require a word of refutation . . . the idea that any government could, consistently with the general well-being, permit this institution to become merely a thing of bargain between men and women, and not regulate it.” This question gained new urgency during the Civil War, when slaves, who had no legal right to marriage, were suddenly prospective citizens. A Union officer charged with educating the freedmen testified to Congress that

    one great defect in the management of the negroes down there was, as I judged, the ignoring of the family relationship . . . My judgement is that one of the first things to be done with these people, to qualify them for citizenship, for self-protection and self-support, is to impress upon them the family obligations.​

    The Union government required that all newly freed slaves under its care in refugee camps “who have been living or desire to live together . . . be married in the proper manner.”

    After the war, administrators of the Freedmen’s Bureau, who were charged with making the ex-slaves conform to American norms, were ordered to coerce their charges into marriage so as to bring them into civilization:

    The past marriages of freedmen, although often formally solemnized, have not been so authenticated that misconduct can be legally punished, or inheritance rightly determined. It is most urgently and plainly needful that this out growth of a by gone system should now cease. A general re-marriage (for the sake of the record) of all persons married without license, or living together without marriage should be insisted upon by employers and urged by all who have any connection with, or knowledge of such persons. They should know that, if after ample facilities have been for some time afforded, they have not conformed to this necessity of social life, they will be prosecuted and punished.​

    The Bureau issued “Marriage Rules” to “aid the freedmen in properly appreciating and religiously observing the sacred obligations of the marriage state.” The rules not only granted the right to marry to ex-slaves but also established high barriers to obtain a legal divorce.

    Dissolving a marriage became slightly less onerous in the 20th century, thanks largely to the aforementioned counter-cultural left, but the institution’s state-sanctioned moral apparatus continued to keep most of us from pursuing our individual desires. As of the most recent count [pdf], 48 percent of married couples are willing to pay lawyers bundles of cash to disentangle from relationships they no longer see as serving their interests. Even today, we pay dearly for that option, not just in legal fees but also from the stigma of having “failed” at what all good Americans are expected to do.

    So let us say to our gay brothers and sisters fighting for the “freedom to marry,” who once led the fight for freedom from marriage: be careful what you wish for—you’ll probably get it.
     
  2. QdoubleA

    QdoubleA Member

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  3. trueroxfan

    trueroxfan Member

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    Not reading. Because nothing will change my opinion, which is this:

    The government has no business in marriage. We are not a Christian nation, we can not make laws just because they agree with Christian ideology. Separation of church and state. If the churches don't want to recognize the marriages so be it, they don't have to marry you, nor does society have to accept you. The government does though. Every Senator and Congressman who votes for anything else should be tried for treason. They are not upholding the Constitution, they are agents of the church who have infiltrated our system.

    I am generally accepting and understanding of other people's views. On this particular issue, however, I am not. If you think the government should restrict gays from marrying YOU ARE AN ABSOLUTE JACKASS AND I HOPE YOU DIE.

    Oh no, Johny and Fred married?! Now my son is going to want to be gay too! Sexuality is not a fad, you either are attracted to men, women, or both, but you certainly don't just BECOME gay. I am not going to wake up the day after same-sex marriages are legalized, and shout to the world, "I'm here, I'm queer, Steer Clear!" Are there "fake gays." YES Some people who are confused about themselves, who are different from everyone, claim to be gay just so they can fall into a group. Those people are not gay and will likely eventually find their way. Heterosexuals are not going to randomly start having gay sex just because marriages are legal. People are not going to stop marrying just because gays can marry. And if they do F THEM.

    Our government should be concerned with nothing else except making this country a truly equal and just place. Right now we are walking, talking hypocrisy...
     
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  4. Dei

    Dei Member

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    Out of curiousity, are you gay?
     
  5. Dubious

    Dubious Member

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    The government has no business in marriage.

    The definition, recording and enforcement of contracts is a valid function of government
     
  6. trueroxfan

    trueroxfan Member

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    Nope.
     
  7. trueroxfan

    trueroxfan Member

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    Marriage as a contract, vs. Marriage in a religious context.

    By defining it as between a man and a woman, they are using it with religious context. I should clarify, the government should not be involved in defining who and who can not marry. If two consenting adults, or two minors with parental consent choose to get married, what business is it of the government to tell them no? solely on the basis of them being of the same sex.
     
  8. Dei

    Dei Member

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    I think it's more like traditional.
     
  9. FranchiseBlade

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    And more traditional than that would be defining it between people of the same race. Your logic doesn't fly.
     
  10. Dei

    Dei Member

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    What? Race?
     
  11. FranchiseBlade

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    Yes, traditionally races weren't allowed to intermarry.
     
  12. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    "I support gay marriage. I believe they have a right to be as miserable as the rest of us."

    ---Kinky Friedman
     
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  13. Dei

    Dei Member

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    I don't think that's part of the definition.
     
  14. FranchiseBlade

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    It used to be. That's why it doesn't work to use tradition for defining marriage in any legal sense.
     
  15. trueroxfan

    trueroxfan Member

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    Tradition drawn from what? Religion mostly.
     
  16. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    [​IMG]

     
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  17. Dairy Ashford

    Dairy Ashford Member

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    Marriage is not a religious institution. It was co-opted by the church because in pre-constitutional society they assumed government's administrative role. Change the word "ceremony" to "certificate" and funerals, baptisms and weddings seem a lot less magical. Marriage wasn't about love until the 1800s or sex until the 1940s. It was investment banking, world diplomacy, pregnancy tests and female employment before those things existed.
     
  18. trueroxfan

    trueroxfan Member

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    Huh? Critics of same-sex marriage use the Bible and tradition to argue same-sex marriage. The meaning of marriage in today's world comes from a religious standpoint. The original concept of marriage is irrelevant. The Prophet Muhammad allowed multiple marriages because marriages were more of contracts back then. By marrying other women, you were agreeing to support them, usually this happened when husbands died or left their women, as it was allowed for men to divorce, but not the other way around.

    Marriage today is between a man and a woman legally, are you saying that religion has nothing to do with the government's definition of marriage? Marriages are nothing more than certificates, whether they are for love, or benefits, is irrelevant. Do they question the motives of straight couples who marry? Why should gays be different?
     
  19. trueroxfan

    trueroxfan Member

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    Can you clarify? Not to be rude, I just don't understand how that fits into the argument.
     
  20. Major

    Major Member

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    That's not quite true. If it were, atheists wouldn't have any interest in marriage. Religion may try to make a claim to it, but the meaning of marriage is not exclusive to religion.
     

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