I guess the cat is out of the bag. I am a Barkley detractor if there is such a thing. Allow me to illustrate my problems with Barkley so we can put this argument to rest. 1. If you compare Barkley to the other superstars of the game you will see a number of differences. 1. Most superstars are considered as such because of their dedication on both sides of the floor. Players like Michael, Hakeem, David, Zo, Glove all have one thing in common. All of them were (or are) great defensive players in their prime in addition to their offensive skills. Charles on the other hand was once labeled "Worst Defender in the NBA". While that title might have been overblown it does highlight the notion that he is unique among superstars in his inability to play defense on a regular basis. 2. I suppose the next thing to come to mind is conditioning. How often did he threaten to retire because of back problems or other ailments. Of course, when you're carrying an extra 20 or 30 pounds your back might give you trouble. Sometimes if you really want to win you have to stay home with the family instead of spending the night clubbing. 3. I suppose the one phrase I can use is "outspokenness". Of course, this inofitself is not bad, and it does endear many to Barkley, but let me explain myself before I get flamed. You can only hear someone lambast other players so much before you just say "put up or shut up". Somehow, Barkley has become one of the spokesmen for dedication and respectfulness to the younger generation. Hmmmmmmmm..... This in account with his frequent gloating as a Sun when they led the Rockets two years in a row demonstrates a lot. 4. It was fun watching Barkley against the Rockets. You could almost count on him missing a key free throw or dominating the ball even when KJ was slicing the Rockets defense like swiss cheese. 5. No titles. This is a hard one to hold against some players, but its just part of the package. In most cases, I would say there is a very good reason when a "great" player goes through a career without a title. Exceptions can always be found, but I don't think Barkley is one of them. What I like about Barkley (just to prove there are some things) 1. On the court this guy gives 100%. There are a lot of good players in the NBA who aren't great because they don't come to play every night. Barkley does. 2. I have to admit, there are some nights where a ref blows a call that costs you the game or someone stinks up the court and Barkley there's to say it. It makes a loss a lot more enjoyable when you can come away with it with a funny quote. 3. I think the way he handled the Scottie Pippen situation was really classy. Chuck could have come out at any time during last season and just said "Boy this guy is really a whiner" or "I just wish this guy would shut up and play" but he kept backing him. Even after the fall out he continued to act professionally. Ok guys, have at it. ------------------ Rockets When? Rockets When?
Great post, Barzilla. I don't consider you a "Barkley Detractor." That's just a cop out so people don't have to counter your sound reasoning. I've always felt that way about Barkley. I wasn't for him coming to Houston in the first place. He is a fun guy to watch and listen to, but that's it. Oh, it was nice of him to help us beat the Suns. Since, we couldn't stop KJ, he did it for us. Ha-ha!!
sound reasoning? can either of you go back to the original post or can i soundly reason that barzilla's ego warranted his creating a new post out of this topic? barzilla: thanks for just coming out clean (it was such a mystery), it's much easier to camp someone than waste all of your time debunking their arguments such as: 1) apples to apples (at least the same position, ehhh???) http://www.nba.com/playerfile/charles_barkley.html http://www.nba.com/playerfile/karl_malone.html your adoption of the defense argument is an interesting one, yawn, b/c it's so trite (did you think this all up by your little self?). karl malone, according to the little kid that lives on the other side of the street, a few doors down, is a GREAT defensive player; however, his defense doesn't seem much different that charles': in fact, charles has better assists, steals and blocks per game. 2) i'm sure that charles' back doesn't hurt b/c of multiple hernias, as well as carrying this team around for so many years. hint: challenge everyone physically for a rebound for 16 years and see how your body holds up. 3)n/a - subjective 4)n/a - subjective/invalid. 5)subjective w/ a twist. you concede that it doesn't mean anything for a superstar to be w/o a title, and then you arbitrarily hold a distinction for charles. very, very interesting, and such sound reasoning if you don't like a player, find something more sophisticated such as my argument against scottie pippen: 'he looks like sarah jessica parker'; don't act as if you are approaching the subject unbiased and then proceed to make asinine arguments.
Which article and what misconceptions? Man thats mean, SJP doesn't look anything like Scottie. [This message has been edited by Tenchi (edited December 04, 1999).]
tenchi, it was on the other thread about the azcentral article. the sjp thing was something that my girlfriend pointed out while we were watching 'sex in the city'; it's ruined the show for me.
addendum: i meant rebounds, not assists (although charles rules malone in both categories) when i was addressing the defensive argument.
Charles may have more steals and blocks than Malone, but this doesn't make him the better defender. Barkley is a better leaper than Malone so he's going to get more blocks. He also takes more chances and jumps into the passing lanes, so he has more steals. Malone has been the better defender over the years because the man he's guarding usually has trouble scoring on him. He wasn't named first team all defense for years because he was more popular with the media than Charles. Malone has always played better D than Charles.
Achebe, I guess you can consider it fun for yourself to insult my intelligence. Why do I have to think of anything original to dislike a player? Do I have to think of a pithy joke for it to be valid? It sounds like you're the one with the ego problem. Just the fact that using "unoriginal" comments (like the defense) makes my opinion more grounded than it would be if I made stuff up. I gave my own analysis of those Suns series in number four and you called it "invalid". I guess it really doesn't matter. You love Charles. ------------------ Rockets When? Rockets When?
Achebe, brutal man. Everyone else, try this - let's psychoanalyze Chuck while he is standing out at the three point line when the game is on the line and Steve Francis passes him the ball with 15 seconds left on the shot clock and he hoists up a 26% three point shot (that is a 74% turnover). Is it ego, is it laziness, is it the incredible desire to win coupled with fatigue, is it because he is a SG trapped inside a PF body (maybe he can have an operation), is it a lapse in reason?
Barzilla- WHile I'm not insulting your intellect, I agree with Achebe. While Barkley's defensive skills aren't the best, I think they're much better than people generally give him credit for. He *is* good at stealing the ball for a PF, and I think that some of his defensive problems can be attributed to his size. And yes, Barkley did make mistakes against Houston in the playoffs... but if he had not been playing, the Suns would never have made the playoffs. Barkley was the MVP of that team, not KJ. [This message has been edited by haven (edited December 04, 1999).]
Barzilla you just don't wanna let go do you? Fine, it's weekend and I have time. 1) Charles Barkley played good defense in his prime, he was unstoppable on the offenseive end, and could hols his own on defense. His stature doesn't make him a defense specialist, yet he has so many things to make it up for him. His speed and quickness, his strong rebounding, his power and strength is valuable at his position to refuse being pushed around while he pushes other pfs around. He constantly put a hand in his opponents face, used his feet to move to positions quickly to block out opponents' driving. The most important of all, he is the master of drawing fouls, he took his opponents out of games in numerous occasions. He is not lazy to play defense and desire is what defense is made up of. I don't think his defense is as great as his offense, but using it as something against his greatness is laughable, unoriginal, and certainly not sound reasoning. His defense is not as good as before because of age and injuries, so are all the other great players. 2)I don't think conditioning is a problem for Barkley ever, he came to camp outweighed and being accused of it not dedicated enough. Of course, if people want to only look at the appearance, not the outcome, they can certainly dwell on that. However, he reduced his weight in the regualr season, and most of all, his belly and heavy butt don't affect his effectiveness. He gets his usual rebounds, run the fast breaks etc... so what's the big deal about it? As the backache part, hey I don't know if you are his wife but I don't know he has backache problem. 3). I like Charles Barkley's candidness, a man says what he thinks. He said things wrong before, but, that's a natural result of being outspoken, the more you open your mouth, the more wrong things you would day. Hakeem is silent cuz he knows this, in fact, he got labelled now as he saidafter the lost Laker game they should go to him more. People are saying he is not willing to change, even calling him dumbass, while I think he was just frustrated. The point is, his remarks is inflated out of proportion and that happened to Barkley too. I'd rather CB open his big mouth than seeing players say things like they are diplomats. 4) Wilt Chamberlain is a career 42% free throw shooting player, much worse than Shag, but that doesn't affect his greatness. 5) There is lots of great players live without a title, and some great players got bailed out, meaning they played a complementary role to get a title such as David Robinson. That's what should Pat Ewing and Charles Barkely should do to get a ring at their respective age. I am not saying Charles Barkley is perfect, he does dumb things just like we do. However, it is one thing to not like a player, it is another thing to bash him whenever people get a chance. The criticism to Barkley is getting stale and boring. We see him put up effort now and that's enough, if the Rockets havethe competitiveness of Barkley, they would have won ten championshiops.
What I don't understand is why Barkley is always held to a different standard. His EGO problem in another player is just self confidence. I never liked the trade for Barkley. IMO we gave up too much and he didn't quite fit. All Players have shortcomings, He is not alone.
Here's some of my remarks on Barkley from other posts. What can I say. I don't feel like typing it all over again. "On Barkley: I'm still 50/50 with him. Sometimes I hate him. Sometimes I love him. My main problem is he doesn't practice what he preaches, and makes way too many dumb mistakes." This was after the Phoenix game: "Charles Barkley has played in the NBA for 15 years, and organized basketball for over 23 years. So, why the hell does this guy still make silly, stupid, rookie, mistakes? I'm not gonna totally blast him, because he shot well, and rebounded well. But, it was his bad passes in the 4th quarter. It was his idiotic foul on Luc Longley, and yes it was a foul. Not a blatantly flagrant foul, but a foul none-the-less. It was his jacking up a 3pter late in the 4th, when he could've passed it out to the top of the key. The shot clock had just been reset. And finally, it was his poor FT shooting down the stretch. I just don't get how a guy with so much 'supposed' heart, can play so foolishly in crunch time. I just have heard so much about how he's a smart basketball player, but tonight I didn't see it." To the people who can't see anything Barkley does wrong, and keep talking about heart and effort: Explain the 3 pters. Explain the dumb foul on Longley. Explain the poor FT shooting. Explain the bad example he gives our young players with his relationship with Refs. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.
barzilla, i apologize if i came off aggressively (i know it's not an excuse, but i probably posted outside of acceptable hours at 3:00am ). i was actually teasing jeffb (whom i respectfully disagree with) about the 'sound reasoning'. i felt that you had finally conceded that you were biased against barkley, as i had argued that i am biased for barkley (i think that i came out clean on this a long, long time ago). on the quote: Do I have to think of a pithy joke for it to be valid?, i assume that you were referring to my joke on pippen. i was just trying to add some levity to the post. sorry that i breezed over #4... i assume that finalfantasy made an adequate response. i kind of glanced over it b/c i thought it lessened the achievement that the rockets had accomplished. they came back on the spurs as well, yet you included david in the list of greats. i assume that if one of barkley's injuries had kept him from playing an entire year, and then his team were lucky enough to win the #1 pick (and that pick were duncan, etc. etc.) that we wouldn't need to have this conversation... i hope that i made it clear that in my opinion, it is okay to have biases... as little regard that i have for malone, it sickens me that robinson got his ring before he and chuck, that's a bias. but rather than bore anyone w/ why i dislike robinson (and find examples to prove my point, which is what i was referring to as 'begging the question': i already dislike robinson, to find reasons post haste to fit that reasoning is not logical, b/c i'm not giving him a chance.) i just leave it alone.
All this garbage about Barkley's personality, off/on-court antics/mistakes, etc --- it's all a bunch of hooey! The bottom line is this: Barkley is as great a player as Malone, Stockton, Payton, and Ewing (all the great ones who haven't won championships) -- there is no denying where they stand in NBA history as great players. It's just that they were all beaten by two players who were one step above them -- Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon (the two best players of their era). It's a pity the two of them never met in the finals (like Bird and Magic did). By the way, Barkley, Payton, Malone, Stockton, and Ewing also have one more thing in common: they're all better players than Pippen. [This message has been edited by theWIGMAN (edited December 04, 1999).]
Achebe, That does make me feel a little better, but as you said before. I had nothing to back my statements up with when you came out and talked about Barkley's steals, blocks, and rebounds being higher than Malone's. First of all, I never mentioned Malone because I don't consider him a good defensive player. I have compiled some stats from this year to compare the two. Basically, what I have done is take every power forward the two have played this year and compared the average number of points they have given up versus the average number of points those players average against the league. PPGA SPPGA Karl Malone 14.9 14.3 Charles Barkley 18.2 15.3 Basically, this confirms my suspicion all along. Malone is basically an average defensive power forward. Charles is clearly below average. Is this because he is 6'4 or because of a lack of effort? Who knows? Let me address one more thing before I go. I think you misunderstood my fifth point. Basically what I said is there is usually a reason why people who are considered great players don't have a ring. We can all find exceptions to this rule, but I don't think Charles is one. He doesn't have a ring because he isn't willing to make the sacrifices it takes to do it. ------------------ Rockets When? Rockets When?
Nice stats Barzilla. Two assorted rebuttals. I saw the 3 against Phoenix. Do basketball players always think rationally about shooting slumps and defensive scheme differences? What I have seen is CB going 1-3 or 1-2 from 3 pt land in the last few games. He figures he's no worse than the rest. It's not what it should be, but Dickerson, Mobley and Mack are not shooting the three like last year. Mobley is shooting .313 and Williams .314. So if CB sees coverage a certain way? Last year, Dickerson shot .433, Mack .397, Price, .411 and Mobley, .358--all from 3 pt. land. Even Quitten shot better last year than Mobley and Williams this year. Barkley has already made 2 more 3s than all of last year. I have to guess it says something about what we have on the floor, not just Barkley. If you are going to criticize Barkley, I just want to be sure you aren't one of those who ever says "hot hand" or "slump." You can say it should be Drew, Bullard or Williams no matter what. I tend to agree. Barkley is not a ball hog, so I think he has his reasons, which maybe we aren't hearing and shouldn't hear. Otherwise, why would he take so many threes this year? One last point about defense. Every rebound above average for a position is better than a blocked shot isn't it? Sometimes you deflect the shot and it ends up back in the other team's hands, right? A defensive rebound is in your hands. They can't shoot it--no ball, no points. That won't show up in Barzilla's stats, because a defensive rebound does not prevent scoring just by the PF. It could be preventing anyone on the other team from scoring. It's a kind of team defense. Here's what I want to know Barzilla. How many rebounds above average is Barkley? Does his team defense make up for his position weakness, which some have attributed to height? The way to calculate this is to multiply his rebounds above average times the points per attempt or points per possession of the other team. BTW Rockets management, I'm looking for a job in basketball mathematics if there's any money left after hiring the capologists.
And I accept that. I am talking about Barkley on the court. Why does he always try to be the hero, the show, the man?
Nice post, rocket66, in fact, in the phoenix game, he shot 1-3 while 2-7 is the usual number for Matt Bullard, and he shot it the first time as they left him open, the second time the clock was bruning out, the third time off his own offensive rebound. I think largely because other teammates were shooting like crap that's why CB shoots more 3s this year. As the last minute loose ball foul, I really disagree to use it against CB as that call was very questionable, there is a big possibility that Longley grabbed Charles' arm and CB was just trying to shake the hand off. So if that was true Longley should be called for loose ball foul, but I am not so sure as I missed the replay. Anyway, it's definitely right for CB to blame Mathis for the loss. While Cat was grabbed, hammered and hugged in the final possesion no call was made. Mathis did cost us this game by making it an unfair one. In a close game the refs do have the power to control the outcome of the game. Someone nailed it that CB is always held under a different standard, missing free throws is not only by CB but also the whole team except Cuttino Mobley. 4-10 is ugly, but hey the man is 37 and played 88 minutes in two nights.
Dreamer I've noticed your frequent knocks directed at Barkley. Let me point out some facts to you. [1] Turnovers per game this season-Barkley 2.5,Dream 2.4. If you're gonna gripe about Barkley's turnovers costing us games,you can surely make the same case with Dream. [2] Freethrow shooting this year Barkley 656[this was after his 4-10 showing the other nite],Dream 690. See point 1. I swear,every time I see Dream shoot FT's,he goes 1-2.Don't go griping about Barkley's "heart" when Dream is scarcely any better. [3] I keep getting the opinion you think Barkley is dumb. Let me ask you,who has adapted better to the new offense,Barkley or Dream? Which is more stupid,jacking up an occasional 3pointer like Barkley,or shooting 25-30 times a game like Dream and hitting maybe 10? I know you think Dream can do no wrong,but get real,he's far from perfect!!!!
