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B-Lo vs B-Ho on climate change

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Dec 16, 2008.

  1. basso

    basso Member
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    He makes some valid points below, although to be fair, the same could be made against most global warming alarmists.

    for the record, i believe that climate change is occurring.

    [rquoter]Hot air from Obama

    Bjorn Lomborg | December 15, 2008

    Article from: The Australian
    IN one of his first public policy statements as America's president-elect, Barack Obama focused on climate change, and clearly stated both his priorities and the facts on which these priorities rest. Unfortunately, both are weak, or even wrong.

    Obama's policy outline was presented via video to California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's Governors' Global Warming Summit, and has again been shown in Poznan, Poland, to leaders assembled to flesh out a global warming road map. According to Obama, "few challenges facing America and the world are more urgent than combating climate change".

    Such a statement is now commonplace for most political leaders across the world, even though it neglects to address the question of how much we can do to help America and the world through climate policies v other policies.

    Consider, for example, hurricanes in America. Clearly, a policy of reducing CO2 emissions would have had zero consequence on Katrina's devastating effect on New Orleans, where such a disaster was long expected. Over the next half-century, even large reductions in CO2 emissions would have only a negligible effect.

    Instead, direct policies to address New Orleans' vulnerabilities could have avoided the huge and unnecessary cost in human misery and economic loss. These should have included stricter building codes, smarter evacuation policies and better preservation of wetlands (which could have reduced the ferociousness of the hurricane). Most importantly, a greater focus on upkeep and restoration of the levees could have spared the city entirely. Perhaps these types of preventative actions should be Obama's priority.

    Likewise, consider world hunger. Pleas for action on climate change reflect fears that global warming may undermine agricultural production, especially in the developing world. But global agricultural/economic models indicate that even under the most pessimistic assumptions, global warming would reduce agricultural production by just 1.4p er cent by the end of the century. Because agricultural output will more than double during this period, climate change would at worst cause global food production to double not in 2080 but in 2081.

    Moreover, implementing the Kyoto Protocol at a cost of $180 billion annually would keep two million people from going hungry only by the end of the century. Yet by spending just $10 billion annually, the UN estimates that we could help 229 million hungry people today. Every time spending on climate policies saves one person from hunger in 100 years, the same amount could have saved 5000 people now. Arguably, this should be among Obama's top priorities.

    Obama went on to say why he wants to prioritise global warming policies: "The science is beyond dispute and the facts are clear. Sea levels are rising. Coastlines are shrinking. We've seen record drought, spreading famine, and storms that are growing stronger with each passing hurricane season."

    Yes, global warming is happening, and mankind is partly responsible, but these statements are - however eloquent - seriously wrong or misleading.

    Sea levels are rising, but they have been rising at least since the early 1800s. In the era of satellite measurements, the rise has not accelerated (actually we've seen a sea-level fall during the past two years). The UN expects about a 30cm sea-level rise during this century, about what we saw during the past 150 years.

    In that period, many coastlines increased, most obviously The Netherlands, because rich countries can easily protect and even expand their territory. But even for oft-cited Bangladesh, scientists just this year showed that the country grows by 20sq km each year, because river sedimentation wins out over rising sea levels.

    Obama's claim about record droughts similarly fails even on a cursory level: the US has in all academic estimates been getting wetter through the past the century (with the 1930s dust bowl setting the drought high point). This is even true globally during the past half-century, as one of the most recent scientific studies of actual soil moisture shows: "There is an overall small wetting trend in global soil moisture."

    Furthermore, famine has declined rapidly in the past half century. The main deviation has been the past two years of record-high food prices, caused not by climate change but by the policies designed to combat it: the dash for ethanol, which put food into cars and thus upward pressure on food prices. The World Bank estimates that this policy has driven at least 30 million more people into hunger. To cite policy-driven famine as an argument for more of the same policy seems unreasonable, to say the least.

    Finally, it is simply wrong to say that storms are growing stronger every hurricane season. Even for the Atlantic hurricane basin, which we tend to hear about most, the total hurricane energy (ACE) as measured by the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration has declined by two-thirds since the record was set in 2005. For the world, this trend has been more decisive: maximum ACE was reached in 1994 and has plummeted for the past three years, while hurricanes across the world for the past year have been about as inactive as at any time since records began to be kept.

    Global warming should be tackled, but smartly through research and development of low-carbon alternatives. If we are to get our policies right, it is crucial that we get our facts right.

    Bjorn Lomborg is the author of The Sceptical Environmentalist and Cool It, head of the Copenhagen Consensus Centre, and adjunct professor at Copenhagen Business School.[/rquoter]
     
  2. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    This couldn't have gone in the other global warming thread? The one deceptively titled "Global Warming"

    Because - SHOCKINGLY, it's by another professional GW denier (who is one of the merry band of 100/200/300/600 climate scientists/guys with PhD's/fictional characters discussed there and discussed before) harping on the same themes discussed ad nauseum.

    Though to be fair, this one does have a new twist indicating the retreat of the GW deniers - "Sure, GW is BAD and it's MAN-MADE....but SO ARE WARS AND HUNGER!" -- LMFAO.

    Is it becauase you have something special to contribute to us with this? A deep thought, or even an asinine statement or conclusion for which you can be harangued mercilessly, adding some general color?

    No...there is not. You have contributed no-value added and wasted a thread.

    Stop sucking.
     
    #2 SamFisher, Dec 16, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2008
  3. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    Now Sam, if a dog pees closer to the door, do you berate him just as strongly as if he pees in your sock drawer?

    basso, I commend the somewhat improved title (though nobody will know B-Lo, or few). And I commend you writing a few comments before the paste, including your own stance on climate change.

    Overall, I do agree this could have been posted in the existing Global Warming thread.
     
  4. basso

    basso Member
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    Denial: I don't think that word means what you say.
     
  5. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    No it does. The denialists (much like yourself) like to shift gears and arguments as evidence mounts and depending on what the counterargument is - that's why you have people who range from "GW does not exist!" "GW does exist but it's not man made!" and "GW does exist and it's manmade but we're all f-cked anyway" routinely tossed out by GW skeptics like you, Senator James Inhofe, MadMax, HayesStreet (2008 vintage) as a incoherent team of mutually inconsistent rivals to argue against planetary non-destruction. Ironically many of them end up getting play in australian media outlets for whatever reason. I haven't looked it up but I can guess why, as an aside.
     
  6. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    meow....
     
  7. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    You know... I finally figured it out. You are worried that hand-wringing over global warming will take the last few antique coal-fired TRAINS off line! A-ha!
     
  8. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    I know you're joking...and it's funny. But I'm concerned about the environment. And I act accordingly. I don't need the sky to be falling to realize the benefits of that or to feel that obligation. I teach my kids about reducing consumption and reusing and recycling what we have. Again..I don't need to mirror a political party to get there...that makes sense and it's good stewardship of what we have. With or without massive imminent climate change...I'm more than good with it.

    I'm asking you with the expectation that merely asking the question means I get another label...but....are any of the "facts" posted in that article correct? Let's just take one...is there any evidence to suggest that: "Sea levels are rising, but they have been rising at least since the early 1800s. In the era of satellite measurements, the rise has not accelerated (actually we've seen a sea-level fall during the past two years). The UN expects about a 30cm sea-level rise during this century, about what we saw during the past 150 years."

    I have no idea if that statement is true or false. None at all. I don't measure sea levels much anymore. And...if it is true, is that significant? It would seem to me that it might be...but I'm willing to accept that you probably know more about it than I do.
     
  9. basso

    basso Member
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    R-E-A-D-I-N-G is F-U-N-D-A-M-E-N-T-A-L
     
  10. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    I'm not going to go through the exercise of digging up the old posts, but there are multiple times in which you have, either yourself or - by giving an article the coveted basso seal of approval - have endorsed all three mutually inconsistent views.

    This leads me to believe that you haven't made an honest investigation of the people whose views you are championing and rather are championing them because they oppose what your political enemies support.

    Now a natural retort would be "well you do the same thing" - and the answer in short is no, not really.

    I'm no expert but it appears to me by any reasonable measure that the scientific community has generally reached a high degree of certainty that GW is occurring and that it is man-made, and this certainty appears to be genuine. This is the same reason why I believe in the theory of evolution, the double alpha helix structure of DNA, Newtonian Physics, etc...my limited first-hand knowledge of this stuff notwithstanding. Obviously there are levels of all of these things that is not fully understood or where they break down, for example Newton's laws can be broken when you introduce Einstein's mechanics into the mix and then down at the quantum level everythng goes sh-t crazy. But anyway I accept them as general propositions.

    However I'm not absolutely wedded to them. If the next day, most of the scientific establishment decided "hey, forget that Adenine bonds with Thymine in DNA, it's actually that Adenine bonds with Cytosine!" I'd happily go along with this change

    If, tomorrow, the IPCC decided " hey, you know what? All that greenhouse gas stuff was wrong, we forgot to carry the two" - I'd be pretty OK with it. Not having to worry about the potentially devastating consequences of climate change would be fine by me.

    I suspect that this same thing doesn't go for you and the other contrarian/skeptics - if Lonborg or whatever GW denier of the month decides to change his tune, you or whoever would simply move on to quoting Dr. Richard Lindzen or Dr. Ball or whatever professional GW Denier you decide to move to that day. You've done this in the past at least, and I don't see why this trend would be broken since you're picking your science via your politics.
     
  11. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    Hi Max. I'll give two levels of response: meta and micro, starting with micro.

    I don't know the answers either: let's look at data.
    [​IMG]
    That's a relatively long term view. Looks like it's been climbing since the civil war. Now how about a very, very recent look at the last two years:

    (sorry for size of this dumb graph)
    [​IMG]

    So, it looks like there is a slight dip over the last 20 months or so. On the micro, you can support, kind of, the authors read of the data, give or take his editorializing. But it is statistically meaningless to talk about the last two years. Real data are simply noisy. If your cholesterol falls for a couple of hours, but you had an egg sandwich this morning, do you say "ha! science is wrong! More eggs for me!" Or do you watch your cholesterol year to year? All these measurements are noisy and you need to look at the biggest picture possible. (See the multi-100,000 year data in the other thread).

    Meta: I don't understand the author's point, other than a drive to find one loose thread. None of this addresses warming and the historical link between CO2 and global temperatures. None of it. None of his argument addresses the science.

    If you're trying to sell me a crap car, you could focus on the hubcaps -- see, not so bad! very clean! But I would still want to drive the car around, look at the engine, and the interior. We have to look at as much data, comprehensively, as possible. One of my problems with a lot of the people who absolutely deny a warming effect is their selective look at data.

    Facts: temperatures are climbing since the 19th century. Sea level is rising. And CO2 is at a record level, and climbing, for the last nearly million years, as far as we can tell. Those aren't good, taken together. Less CO2 will definitely slow down the first two effects.

    We can keep looking for tiny data fluctuations, but I'm not sure I'll respond much more to looking at hubcaps. Make any sense?
     
  12. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    Makes a ton of sense...thank you.
     
  13. basso

    basso Member
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    In a development that can only be likened to the Times praising the Bush presidency, the HuffPo smacks down the Goreacle.

    [rquoter]Mr. Gore: Apology Accepted

    You are probably wondering whether President-elect Obama owes the world an apology for his actions regarding global warming. The answer is, not yet. There is one person, however, who does. You have probably guessed his name: Al Gore.

    Mr. Gore has stated, regarding climate change, that "the science is in." Well, he is absolutely right about that, except for one tiny thing. It is the biggest whopper ever sold to the public in the history of humankind.

    What is wrong with the statement? A brief list:

    1. First, the expression "climate change" itself is a redundancy, and contains a lie. Climate has always changed, and always will. There has been no stable period of climate during the Holocene, our own climatic era, which began with the end of the last ice age 12,000 years ago. During the Holocene there have been numerous sub-periods with dramatically varied climate, such as the warm Holocene Optimum (7,000 B.C. to 3,000 B.C., during which humanity began to flourish, and advance technologically), the warm Roman Optimum (200 B.C. to 400 A.D., a time of abundant crops that promoted the empire), the cold Dark Ages (400 A.D. to 900 A.D., during which the Nile River froze, major cities were abandoned, the Roman Empire fell apart, and pestilence and famine were widespread), the Medieval Warm Period (900 A.D. to 1300 A.D., during which agriculture flourished, wealth increased, and dozens of lavish examples of Gothic architecture were created), the Little Ice Age (1300 to 1850, during much of which plague, crop failures, witch burnings, food riots -- and even revolutions, including the French Revolution -- were the rule of thumb), followed by our own time of relative warmth (1850 to present, during which population has increased, technology and medical advances have been astonishing, and agriculture has flourished).

    So, no one needs to say the words "climate" and "change" in the same breath -- it is assumed, by anyone with any level of knowledge, that climate changes. That is the redundancy to which I alluded. The lie is the suggestion that climate has ever been stable. Mr. Gore has used a famously inaccurate graph, known as the "Mann Hockey Stick," created by the scientist Michael Mann, showing that the modern rise in temperatures is unprecedented, and that the dramatic changes in climate just described did not take place. They did. One last thought on the expression "climate change": It is a retreat from the earlier expression used by alarmists, "manmade global warming," which was more easily debunked. There are people in Mr. Gore's camp who now use instances of cold temperatures to prove the existence of "climate change," which is absurd, obscene, even.

    2. Mr. Gore has gone so far to discourage debate on climate as to refer to those who question his simplistic view of the atmosphere as "flat-Earthers." This, too, is right on target, except for one tiny detail. It is exactly the opposite of the truth.

    Indeed, it is Mr. Gore and his brethren who are flat-Earthers. Mr. Gore states, ad nauseum, that carbon dioxide rules climate in frightening and unpredictable, and new, ways. When he shows the hockey stick graph of temperature and plots it against reconstructed C02 levels in An Inconvenient Truth, he says that the two clearly have an obvious correlation. "Their relationship is actually very complicated," he says, "but there is one relationship that is far more powerful than all the others, and it is this: When there is more carbon dioxide, the temperature gets warmer." The word "complicated" here is among the most significant Mr. Gore has uttered on the subject of climate and is, at best, a deliberate act of obfuscation. Why? Because it turns out that there is an 800-year lag between temperature and carbon dioxide, unlike the sense conveyed by Mr. Gore's graph. You are probably wondering by now -- and if you are not, you should be -- which rises first, carbon dioxide or temperature. The answer? Temperature. In every case, the ice-core data shows that temperature rises precede rises in carbon dioxide by, on average, 800 years. In fact, the relationship is not "complicated." When the ocean-atmosphere system warms, the oceans discharge vast quantities of carbon dioxide in a process known as de-gassing. For this reason, warm and cold years show up on the Mauna Loa C02 measurements even in the short term. For instance, the post-Pinatubo-eruption year of 1993 shows the lowest C02 increase since measurements have been kept. When did the highest C02 increase take place? During the super El Niño year of 1998.

    3. What the alarmists now state is that past episodes of warming were not caused by C02 but amplified by it, which is debatable, for many reasons, but, more important, is a far cry from the version of events sold to the public by Mr. Gore.

    Meanwhile, the theory that carbon dioxide "drives" climate in any meaningful way is simply wrong and, again, evidence of a "flat-Earth" mentality. Carbon dioxide cannot absorb an unlimited amount of infrared radiation. Why not? Because it only absorbs heat along limited bandwidths, and is already absorbing just about everything it can. That is why plotted on a graph, C02's ability to capture heat follows a logarithmic curve. We are already very near the maximum absorption level. Further, the IPCC Fourth Assessment, like all the ones before it, is based on computer models that presume a positive feedback of atmospheric warming via increased water vapor.

    4. This mechanism has never been shown to exist. Indeed, increased temperature leads to increased evaporation of the oceans, which leads to increased cloud cover (one cooling effect) and increased precipitation (a bigger cooling effect). Within certain bounds, in other words, the ocean-atmosphere system has a very effective self-regulating tendency. By the way, water vapor is far more prevalent, and relevant, in the atmosphere than carbon dioxide -- a trace gas. Water vapor's absorption spectrum also overlays that of carbon dioxide. They cannot both absorb the same energy! The relative might of water vapor and relative weakness of carbon dioxide is exemplified by the extraordinary cooling experienced each night in desert regions, where water in the atmosphere is nearly non-existent.

    If not carbon dioxide, what does "drive" climate? I am glad you are wondering about that. In the short term, it is ocean cycles, principally the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, the "super cycle" of which cooling La Niñas and warming El Niños are parts. Having been in its warm phase, in which El Niños predominate, for the 30 years ending in late 2006, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation switched to its cool phase, in which La Niñas predominate.
    Since that time, already, a number of interesting things have taken place. One La Niña lowered temperatures around the globe for about half of the year just ended, and another La Niña shows evidence of beginning in the equatorial Pacific waters. During the last twelve months, many interesting cold-weather events happened to occur: record snow in the European Alps, China, New Zealand, Australia, Brazil, the Pacific Northwest, Alaska, the Rockies, the upper Midwest, Las Vegas, Houston, and New Orleans. There was also, for the first time in at least 100 years, snow in Baghdad.

    Concurrent with the switchover of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation to its cool phase the Sun has entered a period of deep slumber. The number of sunspots for 2008 was the second lowest of any year since 1901. That matters less because of fluctuations in the amount of heat generated by the massive star in our near proximity (although there are some fluctuations that may have some measurable effect on global temperatures) and more because of a process best described by the Danish physicist Henrik Svensmark in his complex, but elegant, work The Chilling Stars. In the book, the modern Galileo, for he is nothing less, establishes that cosmic rays from deep space seed clouds over Earth's oceans. Regulating the number of cosmic rays reaching Earth's atmosphere is the solar wind; when it is strong, we get fewer cosmic rays. When it is weak, we get more. As NASA has corroborated, the number of cosmic rays passing through our atmosphere is at the maximum level since measurements have been taken, and show no signs of diminishing. The result: the seeding of what some have taken to calling "Svensmark clouds," low dense clouds, principally over the oceans, that reflect sunlight back to space before it can have its warming effect on whatever is below.

    Svensmark has proven, in the minds of most who have given his work a full hearing, that it is this very process that produced the episodes of cooling (and, inversely, warming) of our own era and past eras. The clearest instance of the process, by far, is that of the Maunder Minimum, which refers to a period from 1650 to 1700, during which the Sun had not a single spot on its face. Temperatures around the globe plummeted, with quite adverse effects: crop failures (remember the witch burnings in Europe and Massachusetts?), famine, and societal stress.

    Many solar physicists anticipate that the slumbering Sun of early 2009 is likely to continue for at least two solar cycles, or about the next 25 years. Whether the Grand Solar Minimum, if it comes to pass, is as serious as the Maunder Minimum is not knowable, at present. Major solar minima (and maxima, such as the one during the second half of the 20th century) have also been shown to correlate with significant volcanic eruptions. These are likely the result of solar magnetic flux affecting geomagnetic flux, which affects the distribution of magma in Earth's molten iron core and under its thin mantle. So, let us say, just for the sake of argument, that such an eruption takes place over the course of the next two decades. Like all major eruptions, this one will have a temporary cooling effect on global temperatures, perhaps a large one. The larger the eruption, the greater the effect. History shows that periods of cold are far more stressful to humanity than periods of warm. Would the eruption and consequent cooling be a climate-modifier that exists outside of nature, somehow? Who is the "flat-Earther" now?

    What about heat escaping from volcanic vents in the ocean floor? What about the destruction of warming, upper-atmosphere ozone by cosmic rays? I could go on, but space is short. Again, who is the "flat-Earther" here?

    The ocean-atmosphere system is not a simple one that can be "ruled" by a trace atmospheric gas. It is a complex, chaotic system, largely modulated by solar effects (both direct and indirect), as shown by the Little Ice Age.

    To be told, as I have been, by Mr. Gore, again and again, that carbon dioxide is a grave threat to humankind is not just annoying, by the way, although it is that! To re-tool our economies in an effort to suppress carbon dioxide and its imaginary effect on climate, when other, graver problems exist is, simply put, wrong. Particulate pollution, such as that causing the Asian brown cloud, is a real problem. Two billion people on Earth living without electricity, in darkened huts and hovels polluted by charcoal smoke, is a real problem.

    So, let us indeed start a Manhattan Project-like mission to create alternative sources of energy. And, in the meantime, let us neither cripple our own economy by mislabeling carbon dioxide a pollutant nor discourage development in the Third World, where suffering continues unabated, day after day.

    Again, Mr. Gore, I accept your apology.

    And, Mr. Obama, though I voted for you for a thousand times a thousand reasons, I hope never to need one from you.

    P.S. One of the last, desperate canards proposed by climate alarmists is that of the polar ice caps. Look at the "terrible," "unprecedented" melting in the Arctic in the summer of 2007, they say. Well, the ice in the Arctic basin has always melted and refrozen, and always will. Any researcher who wants to find a single molecule of ice that has been there longer than 30 years is going to have a hard job, because the ice has always been melted from above (by the midnight Sun of summer) and below (by relatively warm ocean currents, possibly amplified by volcanic venting) -- and on the sides, again by warm currents. Scientists in the alarmist camp have taken to referring to "old ice," but, again, this is a misrepresentation of what takes place in the Arctic.

    More to the point, 2007 happened also to be the time of maximum historic sea ice in Antarctica. (There are many credible sources of this information, such as the following website maintained by the University of Illinois-Urbana: http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.anom.south.jpg). Why, I ask, has Mr. Gore not chosen to mention the record growth of sea ice around Antarctica? If the record melting in the Arctic is significant, then the record sea ice growth around Antarctica is, too, I say. If one is insignificant, then the other one is, too.

    For failing to mention the 2007 Antarctic maximum sea ice record a single time, I also accept your apology, Mr. Gore. By the way, your contention that the Arctic basin will be "ice free" in summer within five years (which you said last month in Germany), is one of the most demonstrably false comments you have dared to make. Thank you for that![/rquoter]
     
  14. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    Thanks for posting this in the existing thread! That is very, very good!

    I would also recommend you post the authorship of articles; you always seem to hide that for some reason.

    Harold Ambler is an Austin musician/writer from what I can tell. So he is mostly a citizen reporter (?), and that's cool -- it's just good to know.

    The largest problem with his little essay is that he claims just as much certainty of his rightness as Mr. Gore once did. So it's like he doesn't learn anything from his own rant about being certain about something as complex as climate.

    1. Yes, it is a dumb term for educated audiences. But how educated is the average person about the earth's climate?! So this is a lame, semantic point. The English language is full of such unnecessary terms.

    2. Agree we should have full discussions. But see my earlier point. "I'm not a flat earther -- you are the flat earther!!11!" Very productive, Harold.

    3. This is a ridiculous way, scientifically, to argue against the CO2 -- temperature correlation. First, I doubt a dataset of 400,000 years can accurately state a 800 year lag with much certainty, but the main point is you can't say they aren't correlated just because people never existed before to artificially inflate CO2 to a world record. "Without humans, temperature always goes before CO2, so... don't worry! Make all the CO2 you want!" That's insane, and see the next point.

    4. This is his worst point. The science of exactly what CO2 does with sunlight in the atmosphere is well established, and it's not even new or complicated science.

    The point about sea ice (and other 2 year data sets) has been addressed in earlier parts of this thread, which is why it's great to have this in an already existing thread.

    Overall, I love that someone brings up some of the points (like the lag between temp and CO2 levels in the ice core data). That would be very interesting to talk about. But to just say "ha! see! something you haven't explained yet means you are all wrong and the earth is not warming at all and CO2 is a peachy thing to emit!" is pretty lame. As agenda driven as they come.

    Let's keep looking at the data, and we all need to accept that CO2 does one and only one thing to temperature. To try to debunk that is, truly, like trying to debunk what happens to a person when they step off a cliff.
     

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