Your last thread looked like an interesting topic, so lets see if we can keep this thread from going astray. It’s new and more than a little strange to me that some Muslims believe that Christianity is polytheistic. I have a question for you, and any other Muslim who wants to answer. These are three different translation of the Qur’an, correct? YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. SHAKIR: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. Since all three of these say that Christians who believe in God (Allah is simply the Arabic word for God, and it refers to the God of the Abraham, the God of the Old Testament), will “receive their reward” (we would say go to Heaven) alongside of those who believe in the Qur’an, does this not prove to you that Christians are monotheistic? If we were polytheistic, by Islamic law, we couldn’t receive that reward. Mohamed’s own words should prove to Muslims that Christianity is monotheistic, should they not?
I know a lot of christians who don't believe in the trinity, and I know a lot that do. Muhammad might have been talking about all Christians, or he might have been talking about those who don't believe in the trinity. According the article about the trinity being invented, it happened arround 600ish, meaning it is possible he said it before a lot of christians believed in the Trinity. Or maybe allah really doesn't care, and will let them in anyway.
I still find it odd that people can have such amazing debates, battles, wars, etc, about religion. I mean is there not good evidence that a number of the things associated with Christianity, for instance, evolved in order to make the religion more popular at a time when other religions were more dominant? Isn't the acceptance of all religion really just the ability to properly market those specific beliefs to the right audience (of course, sometimes if you're marketing doesn't work you can always fall back on forcing your beleifs on others; could you imagine being forced to eat Jack in the Box for every meal the rest of your life because despite the funny commercials where some guy has his head covered and pretends to be the owner of all Jack in the Boxes everywhere, you just don't feel like having it all the time for the rest of your life?) Is religion a reflection of what someone truly believes or just a reflection of what they've been taught / influenced to beleive?
Religion is made up by man in order to control the masses. The Bible, the Quran, any religious book was written by man. It may have been divinly inspired, or it may not have been. Religion is our way of feeling comfortable about the uncomfortable situation that is death. The Human race fears what it can not explain, and in absence of an explanation, will make one up. Thus = Religion. DaDakota - A christian by nature, but a skeptic at heart. PS. The only real religion is your conscience, people invariably KNOW what is right and what is wrong.
Are you sure you're not a christian at heart, but a skeptic by nature? Congratulations and lots of love to your family .
Azadre: Most Christians don’t find the Trinity incompatible with one God. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two ways that God chose to communicate with us, but the three are one in God. I guess I’m not understanding what the issue is with the Trinity. I didn’t get a chance to read the article before you removed it. Could you send it to me? JZ There’s a difference between “religion” and “spirituality” or “faith.” The terms can carry different meanings for different people, and can be very loaded for some people, but I’ll dip my toe into the water and give you my perspective. Religion, to me, relates more the organisation and the rituals and the politics associated with a particular brand of religion. Spirituality and faith relate more to an individual’s personal exploration and beliefs, their spiritual understanding of reality (as opposed to their logical and material understanding of reality). I think your above statement may well have some truth with respect to religion, but doesn’t really relate to discussions of personal faith. I think that this current discussion works on both levels. There is certainly a political aspect to the relations between “Christians” and “Muslims” but there is also a question about what the faiths are really all about. Religion can operate this way, but faith never does, IMO. Religion can be very, or even purely, political. Spirituality and faith come from the inside out. An ideal church is a place where people of similar beliefs go to share and discuss their beliefs and their lives, not to simply conform to what a “religious leader” tells them be. This is the difference between religion and faith, IMO. If it’s not a personal belief or experience, it’s just a social club. This is not to suggest that a person has to have all the answers to have a faith. Just the opposite in fact. It tends to be when a person realises they don’t have all the answers that they begin to explore spiritually. DaDa: You’re baiting me, but that’s ok. This is traditionally thought of as the Marxist perspective, “religion is the opiate of the masses,” so you and Karl are tight on this. (rimbaud will be along presently to correct me on this interpretation, because it’s not exactly what Marx meant, but I took some poetic license in order to link you up with him. Though you’d appreciate that association. ) And exploring this is an important part of what the spiritual journey is about, but by no means the only part or even necessarily the most important part. I think there are people who join a religion to “join the club” but I don’t see what you mention happening very often. If you don’t go any deeper into your personal exploration of what life is all about, just going to the “club” every Sunday isn’t going to do much for that fear. It would probably make it worse, in fact, because on some level you would know that you’re just going through the motions. And what is a conscience and where does it come from? Start exploring that and a bit and you just may find yourself on the path.
Absolutely, organized religion has always been about control and power. In the middle ages in the abscense of birth control the Roman Catholic church along with the Church of England told people that premarital sex would result in eternal damnation. Now, what better way of controlling your populace then by saying you would rot in hell? Organized religion has always been about control and power, and always will be. People want....no, most people NEED to believe in a divine presence. Everyone wants to believe that evil people get it in the end. However, no one will ever know until it is the end...and they can't tell us. I do believe there is a god, I just don't presume that we can understand his/her motives. If we can not comprehend that space is infinite, then how can we comprehend something that is omnipotent? Man is a finite being, and everything has a beginning and an ending, or does it? I think conscience is divinly inspired, but I do not think that any book is written by God and is to be taken without a HUGE grain of salt. DaDakota - not marxist by a long shot.
There will always be a temptation for large power structures to corrupt, true, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say that all large churches are completely corrupt. I go to a very small non-denominational one because I am fairly sensitive to the political crap, but I know people who go to larger churches who are able to sort through the political to the genuine spiritual stuff without much problem. Not something I’m good at, mind you, but other’s seem to be able to do it. I think the journey is more about you, the individual, rather than about buddy next door who's a rotten guy. That stuff doesn’t get you deep enough. Now, looking at less than sparkling aspect of your own being has more potential. And yes, no one can tell you. It’s useful to listen to what other people are saying (some other people anyway) and then sort through that on your own, but not one of us has it all right so not one of us can tell you exactly how it is, and that includes the church leaders. We can tell you what we believe, but the individual has to explore and experience for themselves. Ultimately it’s a personal journey.
Azadre-- I cannot explain the Trinity to you any better than Grizzled did. To do so would require two things: 1) Faith 2) A couple of years of Sunday school. I wonder why you bring this up. Is it an honest desire to learn more about other people's faith? If so, I think that's fantastic. Many people your age only worry about what so-and-so is going to wear to Homecoming. It's great that you are concerned with bigger issues. The other option is that you are trying to bring out that people of other faiths are somehow hypocritical for holding their beliefs. That would not be so honorable. In any event...it would be best if you made your intentions clear before engaging in this type of discourse.
