I have found some very good sermons preached by atheists, here is an example- Steven Weinberg is a theoretical physicist at the University of Texas at Austin. He was awarded the Nobel Prize in physics for his work on the theory of electroweak unification. In a recent PBS interview he said this about Christians- "I have very good friends who belong to religious denominations whose teaching is that since I don't accept their teaching I am damned for all eternity. And you would think that these friends would try to convert me. But they never do. Now, you could explain this in various ways. It may be that they really don't like me very much and are just as glad to see me damned for all eternity -- that's a possible explanation. But another explanation which I tend to think is more likely is that although they know what their church teaches and they give lip service to it they really don't believe that if you don't follow that particular form of worship you're damned for all eternity...." If his Christian friends do believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven then I don't understand why they haven't loved him enough to say something? link
Same reason you don't slap cigarettes out of people's mouth IT ain't too much in the way of your business You can comment. . but that is about it Rocket River
Thanks for posting that. This is a heck of a quote: "I think in many respects religion is a dream - a beautiful dream often. Often a nightmare. But it's a dream from which I think it's about time we awoke. Just as a child learns about the tooth fairy and is incited by that to leave a tooth under the pillow - and you're glad that the child believes in the tooth fairy. But eventually you want the child to grow up. I think it's about time that the human species grew up in this respect. It seems to me that with or without religion good people will behave well and bad people will do evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Nice. He just implied that his "very good friends" are frauds - either by saying one thing and believing another, or not really caring about his eternal salvation. You're slammed for "trying to convert" atheists, labelled as being intolerant and not allowing them to live their lives as they wish, or you're slammed for NOT trying to reach them and being insincere. I imagine they understand him and realize the best way to reach him is by how they live their lives and to be a representative for Christ by example. I imagine they realize that for his personality, if they were to "try and convert" him, he would pull further away from them, or cut them out of his life altogether. Hard to reach someone who won't return your calls.
It's interesting that you singled out the final paragraph, rhester - that's actually the only part I think Weinberg may be wrong about. Saying his friends don't really believe what they claim to believe is harsh. Saying they don't really care if he goes to hell is also harsh. The correct answer is probably this: And also that his friends know they won't be able to out-reason him. Yet the only way to convert him is through reason
Yup. I've known devout Christians who would almost drag me to church by my ankles if they could.. I've known others who wouldn't even mention Jesus around me. It differs from person to person.
you can reach different people different ways. some people are more receptive to open discussion for others actions and they way you live your life, speak louder than any words could.
To switch from atheism to religion or vice versa after the age of about 24 is just about unheard of for several reasons. 1) Very few people are raised as atheists in the United States, so if you are an atheist it is probably because you have made a very conscious decision. You also probably ticked off your family and/or friends in doing so, so having someone try to convert you can be rude. 2) Being a Christian in the United States is rarely seen as a bad thing, so if you were raised religious, believe in organized religion, and are happy there is no reason to reconsider. Plenty of people rededicate themselves to religion at some point in their life, but no one switches from one side to the other after adulthood. Why lose friends for a lost cause? At the most, I will defend a few political ideas relating to religion, but I would never try to convince a smart adult they are wrong about their religious/non religious beliefs.
Actually Rule0001 hell derives from the greek word geenna, which is symbolic of eternal destruction and used in the new testament by Jesus, was actually a literal place used to incenerate the bodies of Jerusalem. Because gehenna is used dually with hades which were translated from the hebrew term sheol, many have come to interpret hell as a play of fiery torment as given to us by the Babylonians and Assyrians "Nether world" and by religions of Egypt as well, when in fact the new tesstament also tells us the penalty for sin is death and that death is not conscious of the living and even Jesus referred to Lazarus as just dead, wouldn't he say he was in heaven. If you believe in the bible than you believe our lives are the support for God in an event to prove to satan that man needs a God, therefore why would God subject man to little bity Satans torture, he is compassion for mankind who is caught in the middle of this challenge, and anyway if God is to destroy Satan who is going to control hell? I know Rule 0001. I thought with your short sighted response you could use a little of your own medicine. He won't read it guys, sorry, I'm not aetheist or religious or anything, I have explained to any God that is out there that is unfathomable for me to know who a true god is in the midst of so much evil. I've helped free others under religious persecution in my life and all I can hope is my deeds are noticed while I try to bring comfort in a world of injustice.
slap is a ridiculous word to use when telling someone about the love of God. I've never 'slapped' anyone and I have told the Christian message to hundreds of people. The person who leads the evangelism in the church I pastor smokes cigarettes. How many REAL Christians have you met that have done something as stupid as treating people like they are worthless sinners? Try this- one of your very close friends just bought some of that spinach with the e coli virus and he doesn't know but you do. Might want to let him in on the danger, just out of kindness. Or you could grab the cookies and let him kind of figure it out by himself by your good example. A Christian who actually BELIEVES there is a heaven and a hell and is not concerned for others is just selfish. This whole idea of they can figure it out by my example is a cop out. The love we show people earns respect and the opportunity to speak, but silence doesn't communicate the message of God's forgiveness.
No, it is not harsh for a Christian to ask if he really loves others enough to talk about heaven and hell. The very foundation of the Christian religion is Jesus saving us from hell. That is what Christians mean by salvation. Weinberg has used logic here that is escaping us. Explaining the Christian message of salvation does not have to be mean spirited or condemning or condescending. What Mr. Weinberg knows is that his very close friends say they believe in eternal damnation but really don't take it to heart. Faith is how the Christian life is lived. If you give it lip service but don't act on your belief, then the faith is hypocritical. Weinberg can see that. If you were on a commercial jet airplane at 25,000 feet and the fuel was out because of an error in instrumentation and the pilot decided to keep quiet even though there were parachutes locked in the back storage because he didn't want to upset your flight would you think he was a little uncaring sitting up front with a parachute on his back? I don't want to see anyone upset, but people rarely get upset with me when I explain the message of heaven and hell. I speak up about heaven and hell because I believe in the Bible. I know very well I could be wrong. The point is I act on what I believe. We had a couple come to our church last Friday night. They weren't married, they had 3 kids and they were living on the streets. So we put them up in a hotel for 3 nights, bought them groceries and provided them transportation- never met them before- they just wandered in off the streets. I sat down with them and explained the entire Christian message afterwards to the best of my ability including heaven and hell. They listened politely and then we said a prayer together. On Sunday morning they showed up for church and we helped them with more groceries.- They've left the hotel and we can't find them, but we were priviledged to help them and I can say that from my heart I felt love for them. That's not a waste of money, that is a love investment. I wish everyone searching would wander into the church. I spoke to them about sin, judgment, Jesus dying on the cross, love, forgiveness and heaven and hell. They may have oblidged me to get something I don't know or care, I don't judge people in need. I find it hard to believe in eternity, heaven and hell and keep quiet. Less than 2% of all Christian share the Christian message even once a year. Lip Service to what we believe?
I agree that you can reach people in different ways and a Christian example is vitally important to give validity to the message- hypocrites turn people off. I have been a pastor for 24 years and I have never met a Christian who became one after only looking at the life of other Christians and deciding to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. I have talked to many hundreds of non believers and the most common response I have heard concerning the life of Christians is that they are hypocrites. The idea that thousands of people are becoming Christians because of our good example is neither Biblical or practical. As far as how loud our love is- it should be loud enough that we can respectfully share the message of Jesus. If I sound frustrated it is because hell may be full of people who knew Christians who said nothing. One of the greatest sermons in the Bible was preached by someone in hell. A rich man went to hell. He was in torment and begged Abraham to send someone to give him a drop of water on his tongue. - Listen to his sermon- And he (the rich man) cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented...Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:24-31)
Ask any fireman and they will tell you good intentions do not save people in burning buildings and keeping the fire station safe is a good example but it doesn't put out fires in the neighborhood. We have alot of nice churches- pretty nice looking buildings too, but most people don't hear the Christian message driving by on Sunday morning with their car windows rolled down. I don't mind being called a moron for believing in God, but I don't want to stand before God as a hypocrite. I must have awoke this morning in a fiesty preachy mood. God bless you all, I should share the Christian message more here in D&D when it is appropriate, can't say I haven't been guilty of skirting the issure.
What I meant is it would be harsh for me, for you, and even for Weinberg himself to assume knowledge of why exactly his friends haven't tried to convert him By all means, stand up for what you believe. Share what you believe. (This is more of the "I am right and you are wrong" mentality, but I have to say it's human nature after all.) And I agree with you to some extent: A person who claims to be a Christian is expected to believe completely, and thus has the duty to evangelise. This is logical. It's not always so easy in practice, though - as I'm sure you know Having agreed with you for once , I still think the best thing anyone can do is recognise what he can never be sure about, and abstain from developing beliefs about those subjects
an extreme word to prove and extreme point If you see a kid sticking a hair pin in the electrical socket you might slap it out of his hands. . . or If you see a guy step into the street and a car is barreling to him you might smack him out of the way of it but in the absence of IMMEDIATE Danger . .you try to be less extreme The fact that someone's soul is in danger is not seen as Immediate but If you a christian it is no less real than the car or the socket If you push the guy out of the way of the car and he jumps back into it You did what you could do . .. he made a decision same here You can talk to them . .but not brow beat them. As someone pointed out .. . rather than respect you attempting to respect their ideas a religious person is said to be selfish and maybe a hypocrit but if you do brow beat them . .then you are a zealot imposing your religion on them Most times. . I have found alot Atheist to be Arrogant and Condesending toward people of religion . . . they tend to look upon religious people as Quacks and 'less' intelligent . . borderline r****ded I use to be an Atheist. . and an Agnostic . . . I hung out with that crowd . . . and that is one of the things I came away from it with Rocket River we all people. . . . so be people
You are correct and I appreciate the tone of your post very much, I woke up on the wrong side of bed, because I don't want to berate any Christian who might not SPEAK out their faith. I am leary of hypocrisy and I feel that is what Mr. Weinberg is implying. It is hard for every Christian to speak up, I have fear grip me when ever I make an attempt. I am also concerned I might offend someone or have my feelings hurt or that I might be rejected. But I definately believe. And God's love has so changed my own life, I can't stop telling others. Hard as it is, I make a choice to care. Not that I want to do it, no I am not that spiritual of a person at all. I usually want to do my own thing without making waves. But I just think about what God has asked me to do and I say OK. I love God. He loves me. That is about as deep as my theology runs in my head and my heart.
