The whole Chinaman discussion has gotten me thinking about Asian American stereotypes and I'm curious what the rest of Clutchfans out there think. For about the past 40 years Asians have lived under the stereotype of being a "model minority" who are hard working, studious, thrifty, reserved, over achieving and quiet. While many would say that if Asians are going to be stereotyped its better to be stereotyped like this than as lazy, under achieving and loud as some other stereotypes. IMO though even a model minority stereotype is doesn't do credit to Asians and in some ways burdens Asians as much as the stereotypes of African Americans being natural atheletes affect them. One example from the "chinaman" debate was that one poster stated that Asians by being quiet and hardworking achieved civil rights and more success than by protesting like other minorities. This view ignores that for one Asians weren't granted civil rights separately from other minorities but benefited from the civil rights movements but also that things like the Exclusion Act (that banned Chinese Immigration) wasn't ended because Chinese were so hardworking but because the US was allied with China in WWII. Also the surge generations that have created the "model minority" stereotype were primarily Asians that arrived or were born here after the civil rights movements and were able to take advantage of the opportunities opened up by those movements. Most of the Asians that have been here before the civil rights movement suffered the same discrimination as other minorities and were poor and isolated in ghettos of chinatowns or itinerant farmers. Up until the 1960's the stereotype of Asians, particularly Chinese, was as dirty, hedonistic, greedy, and corrupting. To wrap this up and bring it back to why we are on this site in first place, I think this explains the immense popularity of Yao Ming among all Asian-Americans because here is an Asian being celebrated as an athlete, other than a tennis player or figure skater, in one of the most quintessentially American sports. Yao gives Asians a different face that and lets us know that we can be accepted for something more than as brainy reserved nerds.
This reminds me of a Mad TV sketch called Average Asian, where an asian guy is just a regular guy, but people believe he fits all the stereotypes. In school, they think he's an excellent math student, in music class, the teacher thinks he'll be an excellent musician, but all he can do is play the triangle, and he just touches it once and the teacher is like, "so simple, yet profound, almost zen like, just like your people." In the end, his friends are sitting in a car waiting for him and they are obviously scared to have him drive and are being scared backseat drivers pointing out other cars and stop signs when they are many yards away. Funny stuff. Anyways, I grew up in Alief and had more chinese and vietnamese friends than other hispanic ones, I know they feel the same way as you Sishir, though that was years ago and I have know clue what they think of Yao Ming, but I imagine they are all fans, especially one of my best friends from back in the day, Edward, he loved basketball.
And to think I wasted my time playing guitar in jazz band when all I had to do was play a triangle. On a tangential side note. I've really started to like Mad TV. They are much funnier now than SNL IMO.
Sishir Chang. Good points about the Asians benefitting from the Civil Rights Movement. I wonder if many realize that. Many seem so politcally conservative and frankly hostile to other minorities. At my son's school there was a big to do when the valedictorian (Asian) made some very racist statements about Hispanics. I don't know what to think about the Asian sterotype of the nerd who studies 8 hours a night obsessively. An Asian guy told a friend of mine that: "We Asian guys are under so much pressure. A friend of mine who is working on a PhD at Rice is not considered good enough for his fiancee, by her family since she is in medical school." An Asian nurse friend of my sister told her matter of factly that she abruptly cancelled a big family party for her daughter's graduation because the girl disgraced her family by falling to 11% ranking at a competititve suburban highschool. A lawyer friend of mine says that he has see familites where say the eldest daughter is a valedictorian or very top student and the second child, a son, turns to gangs (my friend thinks) because boy is made to feel like a disgrace for not being able to keep up with the older sister. An Asian professional friend of mine told me that he didn't send his son to a particular highschool because there were too many Asian kids there to compete with. Is this type of thing continuing into the successive generations? My general impression is probably not. How atypical are these examples?
I knew a guy in Korea who killed himself because he could not get into the college he was supposed to get into.
Model minority is a backhanded slap against all minorities. It implies that Asians are just good enough to compete with the majority, and that other minorities aren't and still aren't. It's being used everywhere, and I don't doubt that it causes racial tensions between Asians and other minorities, especially with Asians taking low wage jobs who recieve the brunt of the stereotype. Anyways, I don't see a lot of stereotypes of young Asian American males on television. But Asian chicks are super sexy and exotic. I guess the Asian guys are working to hard to become technicians and doctors to think about Hollywood.
Nice comments about Hollywood there...I am sure there are no male Asians who would want to go into acting at all. None whatsoever. I think it would be more accurate to say that the American majority (whatever that is) views Asians as a umm feminine or effeminate (at least in terms of sexuality) society that is exotic. Hence, Asian women are considered desirable, but Asian men are emascualted and not considered "manly." This stereotype has been around for a very long time (lots of literature on it actually) in America. In fact, can't remember the exact numbers, but I believe that Asian American women marry outside of their ethnicity/race more than any other group in America. So I guess all of America buys it to some degree (Asian and non). Tough luck for the Asian male though... I really do think having a Yao Ming will help promote a better image of Asian men outside of the standard stereotypes. It's good to have role models in various professions. As much as the academic society needs more minorities and women in high positions, I think having successful Asian athletes help pave the way to discarding some of the old stereotypes. Just my thoughts.
This part of the problem with the model minority stereotype but it also has a lot to do with traditional Asian cultures and also immigrant cultures in general. Many immigrants whether they are Asian or not come here with a strong desire to succeed and work hard. The main thing about the Asians, particularly Chinese, Koreans and Indians, that came here after the civil rights movement is that they are well educated ambitious people who came here by choice. Compare that to many of the Vietnamese and other SE Asians who came here as refugees, many of them are poor and less educated and haven't succeeded. Another you bring up is that many Asians have bought into the model minority stereotype themselves and look down upon other minorities. Racism and classism is very strong in traditional Asian societies and unfortunately many of those attitudes carry over here. Many Asians here feel that their success puts them equal, or even above, the whites and look down upon other minorities. IMO we Asian Americans are far from perfect and its a sad thing that many of us can't recognize that the opportunities we have were won by the struggles of other minorities.
This was seen as a big problem in the Asian American community for a long time but I think its gradually begining to change. It seems like until recently in media Asian women were seen as exotic sexpots and forbidden flowers while Asian men were either Japanese/Vietnamese/Chinese Communist rapist or nerdly sidekicks. Even the uber male Bruce Lee in his only Hollywood picture was more busy thinking about his mission while Jim Kelly and John Saxon got busy with the ladies. On top of that Asian American female writers like Amy Tan didn't help out by depicting sexual relations with Asian males as being violent and joyless while sex with white men was fulfilling. Asian males have had the reverse sexual stereotype of African American males which has been reflected in dating and intermarriage patterns. In the last ten years or so things seem to be changing there are more roles for Asian males in media where they actually have love interest, even non-Asian at that, (though Jet Li still never got to get hot and heavy with Aliyah in Romeo must Die )and it seems like there are more Asian males dating non-Asians. So for all my hard up brothers there is hope.
Sir JC, thats great, but we are talking about asian americans here. anyway, ive taken classes on asian americans, and the problem with the model minority is that it still creates a stereotype and removes one of the most important aspects of being an american, that is individuality. Secondly, read Edward Said's 'Orientalism', in that you will learn that the western world has been programmed to believe that there are only two sides of things culturally, European and non-European, also known as the 'Orient' and the 'Occident', he doesnt necessarily say that it is wrong, but is saying that culturally, we are to believe that we are better than others (and all cultures do this in some way) and in order to emphasize this, all other cultures unlike us are portrayed as the opposite or negative of our own culture. Therefore, in the west, we will always see people from the 'Orient', which is a western concept, as different, it is our social programming.
Sishir, I think that's me you are referring to. I just want to clarify my view. I made great pain to make sure that I didn't mean to minimize the benefit of the Civil Rights movement and other political activisms. I was just trying to point out that overemphasizing fighting for political "rights" might end up encouraging a sort of unhealthy victim mentality. That kind of mentality quenches the self-sufficient spirit which is so fundamental for an ethnic group to thrive.
the model minority is a false compliment paid by the majority to deceive asians, and at the same time, it's being used to dis other minorities and pit minorities against minorities. it also creates the false illusion that asians have no problems. thus, making it easier to ignore asian issues and asian concerns. asians taking low wage jobs has also made them a target of hate because many "americans" feel they're stealing their jobs. there are plenty of stereotypes relating to asians on television. the stereotypes regarding asian women in the media often portray them as whores, easy, and many other insulting portrayals. one of the most famous examples of this is shown in the movie full metal jacket. for stereotypes regarding asian men, just look at this f**ked up cartoon on icebox.com called mr. wong, http://www.icebox.com/icebox/shows/show_54/viewer_frameset_ep1.html there are many other similar insulting portrayals of asian american men.
Easy; Yes I believe that was you but I didn't want to single you out because I've heard similar comments from others. I'm not making light of hardwork and self sufficiency either. The problem with saying that any minority who complains is simply looking for victimhood belies the fact that minorities have really been victimized by racism. The claim that minorities are only out to achieve "victimhood" is really a backhanded way to keep people from expressing what they really feel. While its true that we live in a diverse society where everyone must get along I don't think having people stay quiet when they feel offended all the time is necessarily the best thing to do. As with the Steve Kerr incident, very few people were calling for his head but were mostly trying to point out why we found "chinaman" offensive and that he shouldn't use it. Speaking for myself I didn't feel victimized by Steve Kerr and never considered making a buck or some other advantage off of it. Rather than think about this as seeking special victimhood this is more about saying that as Asians we have just as much right to be offended when an offensive term is used as much as anyone else. Nothing more, nothing less. As for self-sufficiency and hard work being better than fighting for civil rights history shows that both are needed. The Asians that lived here before the Civil Rights movement worked very hard yet were still discriminated against. If you lived in chinatown in the 1920's you could work 18 hour days 7 days a week and not complain and still be poor with no hope of everleaving chinatown. Many Chinese did. No amount of hardwork or being a quiet Asian would ever change discrimination. Racism is not rational. The segregationist laws limited economic development because it cut off markets and resources from both the group in power and the group oppressed. They also wasted resources in duplicating services, even substandard ones. Why build two water fountains when one will do. So while yes Asians have gotten far through hardwork and being quiet they wouldn't have had the chance to compete without other minorities vocally protesting to open up those opportunities to Asians.
First, thank you for the yellowworld.org website, interesting site Second, there's definitely a lot of pressure for the Asians to be part of the model minority. My parents constantly tells me success of their friends/co -workers/relatives who's son or daughter got into so and so school or got a so and so job. And my parents are one of the more open minded Chinese parents I know that would only "steer" me and my brother verbally in the direction, but ultimately leave to do what we want (something I'm really grateful for). But as an asian, there are definitely some expectations. When I first got out of high school, I got into a top ten engineering school (UT), scored 1430 on my SAT and I was only consider "average" and middle of the road since i didn't get into Harvard or Yale, or didn't get a full scholarship (well atleast not to any college that's considered atleast "average"). You also almost never hear any asian kid going into acting, art or political science in college, since such act would seem wasteful or even "stupid". I think a major reason that something like this happens is because as said before, many immigrats from asia, (especially those from China, Korea, and India) are from college educated families that typically gave up a fairly cushy job or life style in their respective countries to come to America so their kids can have a better opportunity at higher education. So not only due the parents feel that the kids owe it to them to succeed, but the kids also feel a lot of pressure to pay their parents back for the sacrifises a lot of them makes. So there's a huge pressure to not to "fail" in life. But I think it also makes a lot of people fail to see what's the point of life.
Sishir, I agree with most of what you say. Again, I am not saying that political activism is bad or useless. I am not saying that whenever minorities complain, they are only out to achieve victimhood. And I am certainly not saying that when people are being discriminated against, they should not voice out and fight for their rights. In fact I totally agree with your stance on the Chinaman issue. I guess our disagreement lies in weighing the "hard working" part and the "activism" part. Of course they are both needed. But I believe the former is more valuable to a minority group than the latter. If I could only choose one between hard work and activism for a minority group, I'd choose hard work. (Thank God we don't have to make that choice in this society now.) Being hard working can never hurt a group. Being too activistic can, IMO. I could be wrong, of course. I am speak from my own experience, not just on the race issue, but on almost all human relation situations. "Overactivism," as I call it, has at least two possible pitfalls. 1. I mentioned the victim mentality. It has nothing to do with whether the person is a victim or not. I has more to do with the sense of responsibility. The victim mentality goes like this: "I am not getting what I want because I have been wronged. Now give me what I want." It puts the responsibility of achievement on compensation of past wrongs rather than on one's own effort. Again, I am not saying that every activism is like this. I believe OVERactivism has this effect. 2. It creates a sort of reverse racism. It plants hostility in the heart of minorities against the "majority." There is always this suspicion that "they are out to step on us." That is not quite the way to achieve equality in the society. Sishir, I am not very far from what you believe, just a slight disagreement here. Maybe because, unlike you, I am a first generation immigrant, I still have that ingrained traditional Chinese thinking. BTW, a minor point: I don't think being hard working and quiet is a stereotype for Asians. I think it is a general truth. This may be just semantic. To me, stereotyping is something that is (1) a quasi-myth, not generally true, and (2) intended to trivialize the characteristic of a group of people. Asians are generally hard working and quiet, and it does not trivialize them. For example, I consider the statement "White people are less athletic then blacks" a general truth, not a stereotype. On the other hand, statements like "Athletic people are not academically inclined" and "Chinese have small eyes tilted up at the end" stereotypes.
I'm not sure what part of China you are from but I've spent time in Hong Kong around some pretty loud Chinese and in Seoul saw people arguing in the street. Many of the Chinese I know here including my own family are pretty loud and boisterous. I've also met plenty of lazy Chinese too. While it is true that Confucian society values hard work and reserve that doesn't mean all Chinese are like that. I try to work hard but as you can guess I'm not that quiet or reserved, especially when watching the Rockets. I think you are right that we are not that far off in our thinking. My feeling is that while hard work and dilligence is a good thing and activism can lead to backlash without activism Asians wouldn't have been able to get to even be stereotyped as a model minority because they wouldn't have gotten any opportunities. Once they have those opportunities though it is up to hard work and dilligence to be able to succeed. Since you are a first generation immigrant I don't know how much you have studied about Asian American history but if its something you are interested in I would recommend reading Helen Zia or Eric Liu or see if you can find the Bill Moyers PBS special on Chinese in America called "Becoming America". On the fiction side I recommend Maxine Hong Kingston's "Woman Warrior" which IMO is far superior to any of the sappy Amy Tan books, or even John Steinbeck's "East of Eden"
When people say Chinese are quiet, they are not thinking about noise. "Quiet" means "not complaining in public." I think it is generally true for traditional Chinese. Another definition issue: "General truth" is just that, something generally but not absolutely true. General truths typically have lot of exceptions but are true the majority of times. Anyways, enough of semantics. Thanks for your book recommendations. I haven't read a lot of Asian American history. And historical fiction is not my taste. Sci-fi & Fantasy is. Now, you know my inclination: definitions, logic, and all the unrealistic stuff.
ugh, woman warrior is not good to start off with. It took a lot of heat in the 80's for solidifying bad asian stereotypes (although that was not the author's point) and many reviews called it 'exotic' and other orientalist terms that really had nothing to do with the american book. you can read about this in one of kingston's articles called ill agree that Tan is crappolla Of all Asian american lit, No-No Boy was one of the first and most influential. Native Speaker is also a good one. Like Easy and Sirshir's debate, this is a common topic in Asian American culture, and you guys have the right conclusion that both are important. Activism is definetly important but it has to be smart activism, it can't be illogical or have the potential to be percieved wrongly. Hard work is equally important, but sometimes, work isnt fully rewarded because of things that could be changed through activism.
