Ashcroft's bigotry

Crusades anyone?

Anyone that thinks God wants you to die for him, is not using all the cards in the deck.

DaDakota

 

My goodness, Ashcroft - a Christian - says a Christian-like statement to a Christian interviewer for a Christian news outlet. How shocking!

 

What was derogatory about it? It's true. Although it does ignore the fact that Christians send off their sons to die as well...

But it's still true.

 

When did Ashcroft say "The God of Islam is bloodthirsty, but the God of Christianity is merciful"? I'll bet that if you did a search, you could come up with at least 20 separate instances where he said that Islam is a peaceful religion - that'd be pretty easy to find, since that's the company line.

You're grabbing at straws here, boy.

 

[cracking up at funniest smilie ever seen]

 

treeman: You are much smarter than that. You called it a "Christian-like" statement and then said it wasn't derogatory.

I remember people telling me in Christian schools that other religions were the work of the devil because they kept people away from the real God. Same rhetoric, different person saying it.

I don't agree with you or boy all that often on these matters, but let's not be silly. Saying you don't have a problem with what he said is one thing. Trying to suggest he didn't mean anything bad about Islam is a HUGE reach.

 

Jeff:

What do you expect from a Christian Ashcroft? To a Christian interviewer? For a Christian news outlet? It was just an observation that it shouldn't be too surprising.

(Let it be known that I personally don't even like Ashcroft. I was somewhat enraged when I learned that he was to be nominated for the post - his views on abortion and religion scare me.)

But he's probably said "Islam is a peaceful religion, and we are not targeting muslims in this investigation" enough times that he felt like saying something else. Big surprise.

If he really wanted to make a derogatory statement he would have said something along the lines of "Islam's God wants you to become a martyr by blowing up a school bus, while Christianity's God wants you to make a muslim a martyr by killing him before he gets on the school bus", or something inflammatory like that...

But he didn't say anything like that. In a dogmatic sense, he spoke the truth. Big deal. And keep in mind the context of the interview - boy is making a big deal out of nothing.

 

So what are you saying Jeff, Christians think other religions are works of the devils based on your experience?

Let me guess, thats not what you meant.

So exactly what do you mean by that statement?

 

The meaning of the statement is straightforward to me, I don't see a blanket condemnation of Christians in there, I'm kind of befuddled as to where you see it.

 

So Christianity is inherently bigoted? It's one thing to say, "my faith lies with Christ." But Ashcroft's innuendo was incompatible with his other statements that Islam is peaceful. You can't say "Islam is a crusading, violent religion" while maintaining that Christianity is fundamentally peaceful, then attempt to maintain a PC facade at the same time.

And who care what his audience was? Or whether he's a Christian? That's ridiculously irrelevant. Are such views inherent to Christians? No. Is it necessary that he mention such in an interview? No.

So why does that constitute a defense? It doesn't. Your defense is meaningless. I think you and boy have an inherent propensity to disagree with each other regardless of what the other said. If boy walked up to you tomorrow, and called you a brilliant, remarkable, charitable human being, you'd reply that you were a stupid scoundrel who's responsible for the greatest wrongs of our time.

 

I think that what NCSTATEFAN meant was - how does that have anything to do with the original implication?

Ashcroft was not saying that Islam was "the work of the devil".

Maybe I misread the whole thing.

 

haven:

Oh please... You're right. Context is meaningless. Doesn't matter at all. And Ashcroft isn't human anyway...

Ashcroft's "innuendo" was not incompatible with dogmatic belief - on either side. On the Islamic side, to die in jihad is to become a martyr - there is no higher honor - and the honor extends to the family. On Christianity's side, God sent his son to die for our sins. Both are dogmatic truths. He stands on very solid ground there.

He said two true statements. You have merely taken them as offensive - that is your real defense. That is indefensible.

 

Whether Ashcroft professes these things to a Christian newspaper, or Time, he's still making the statements.

Ah, but the true question is meaning. When you look at the Old Testament... Christianity is not a peaceful religion. It's the same sort of crusade religion as he's accusing Islam of being. Either

A. Ashcroft is a bigot who simply ignores the nasty parts of his own religion or
B. he's lying.

Either one has to be true, given the nature of some of the Old Testament.

Please. He made a statement that was either self-deceiving or other deceiving. That's obvious. This administration has come to be run by zealots. Moderates like Colon Powell have become completely disenfranchised. And despite your protestations that you're a moderate, you don't recognize this. I'm flabbergasted.

 

He didn't say it was a crusading, violent religion. He said sons die for their God. Islam promotes the jihad. But the jihad does not have to be against anyone or spill the blood of another. The jihad is traditionally the struggle against non-Muslims. But it also means the inner strugle against sinfulness. The jihad is NOT a holy war (History of the Modern Middle East, Second Edition). So to call the Islam god "blood thirsty" is wrong. But to be a martyr is a great thing and that means dying for God (so Ashcroft was not wrong here). Personally, Muslims during the Rightly Guided Caliphs until the end of the Ottoman Empire were the most tolerant of other religions.

He did not say either that the Christian God was "peaceful." The Christian God sent his son to die for his people (so he was not wrong here either). But that does not make our God peaceful. He destroyed the whole planet with the flood that lasted 40 days and nights. Does that sound peaceful? Christians have the Crusades. Christians believe in saints.

Ashcroft did not say anything wrong so how could it be offensive, unless you did not know each religion or their beliefs? Some people are putting words into his mouth. If you interpret it that way, that's your call. But he did not lie.

I don't remember where it says that the Christian God and Islam's God are different. As far as I know Muslims do not say Jesus does not exist (but if they do, please correct me). They do say that Mohammed was the last prophet. (to me, it's similar to the differences between Judaism and Christianity). They are both monotheistic religions.

There are several people that blatently called Islam terrible after 9/11 and meant it. And you knew they meant it. Unless he says that the Islam God is merciless and wicked, I'm not reading into it.

 

haven:

(s*it, can't believe that I'm having to defend Christianity)

Why do you ignore the New Testament? Obviously, when Ashcroft said that "Christianity is a faith in which God sends his son to die for you", he was not talking about the Old Testament. Jeebus wain't thure.

Dogmatic truths. Both of them. Absolutely no way around that - unless you want to ignore the entire New Testament - the foundation of Christian philosophy...

No, I'm flabberghasted. How low will you sink to take shots at Ashcroft? You're always spouting on about how you admire logic, yet when the name Ashcroft pops up you throw it out the wayside and take your cheap (and highly illogical) shots.

For example, your man Powell recently jumped on board the Iraq bandwagon. You've been chirping about the illogic of that for a couple months, but not a peep has come about the SecState's about face...

Where are you when Logic really needs you, haven? Are you just here to call Ashcroft and the administration weasels?

I'll say it again: I do not personally like Ashcroft. But the above statements he made were both true and logical. Find something else to bash him about.