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Are You Now, Or Have You Ever Been A Memeber Of...

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by MacBeth, Oct 16, 2003.

  1. MacBeth

    MacBeth Member

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    One aspect of the Frontline piece done on the Iraq war last night has really stayed with me, and it comes in two parts, one which I already knew, and one which I didn't.

    The first was that anyone who had been a memeber of the Ba'ath Party is hereafter excluded from taking part in the administration of the country, running for office, or holding rank, by American decree.

    Now, before you start screaming mass graves, let me point out a few things;

    These are not people who have been convicted, charged, or even necessarily accused on any kind of crime whatsoever. The entire qualification for being excluded from taking any significant part in the future of their own country is former political affiliation, period. People assosciated with crimes are being dealt with through legal processes. These are civilians. And we aren't talking about the hierarchy of Saddam's regime, we're talking about something in excess of 30, 000 people. Ruled out. By America.

    That's the other thing...who do we suppose knows more about what Iraqis were and were not a part of Saddam's tyranny, us or the people who lived there? Are we afraid that the Iraqis are going to run out and elect their former captors? And if they do...isn't that 'freedom'?

    But, moreover, one thing that amazes me about the Freedom we say we fought for Iraq to have is so much different than the freedom we want for ourselves. Didn't we go through the whole thing about judging people based on former political affiliation back in the 50's? Didn't we learn that, in a free country, people have the right to have whatever political views they want without being systematically punished for it? SO how can we tell a country we don't even understand what they can and can't do with their freedom? Is that freedom?

    You can't have a theocracy, has to be our kind of government. And we'll get back to you on whether the guy you want to vote for is acceptable...'freedom'? I know that we have known this for a while, but I don't think we ever addressed it, as it slipped in amidst all the other stuff. How can that be termed a free society, when a foreign power tells them who they can and can't vote for, and what kind fo government they can and can't have?

    But the second thing which came out in the Frontline piece is that this policy is accepted within the reconstruction of Iraq community as being far and away the number one thing which has slowed down that reconstruction. In fact the very reason that Paul Bremer was brought in to replace the originally appointed US adninistrator of Iraq, Jay Garner, was for using people who had been Ba'ath members in the past. garner says he used them because they were by far the most qualified people, and unless they were guilty of some crime, he assumed that thier qualifications were what you judged them on, not their former political affiliation....but, nope, you're out, Bremer's in, and Bremer is issuing decrees left and right.

    This blows my mind...Your criteria for a job isn't based on how qualified you are, or whether there are qualified people to replace you, or whether you are assosicated with any crimes, but merely on what your political affiliation used to be? So much so that we will allow large segments of the country to go without water, electricity, medical care, etc. as well as other administrative practices. Since the war the country's unemplyment rate has exceeded 50%, and yet we aren't able to find people to do the jobs necessary for the country to function, and for us to, as we say we want, get out and leave iraq to the Iraqis. I submit that as long as we continue to define what Iraqis it can be left to, what those Iraqis can do with it, and not allow them the kind of freedom we say we want to give them, so long as we dictate the terms of their freedom, they won't be free, and we won't be leaving.
     
  2. MacBeth

    MacBeth Member

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    A) When is edit coming back?
    B) How the hell did I make the same typo twice?
     
  3. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    Why would we want more Baathists running Iraq? Do we want to do this all over again in a couple years? You don't put the same murderous regime that you just fought a war to remove back into power. The people can still vote for any of the millions of other citizens that live in Iraq, just not for the same ones we just spent billions getting rid of. We left the Warlords in power when we pulled out of Somalia, and who can forget how that turned out for us.
     
  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    former nazi party members were part of postwar West German government and Austria as well (kurt waldheim). Try finding a competent non-former party member bureaucrat to run stuff in Iraq and then let me know how easy it is.
     
  5. MacBeth

    MacBeth Member

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    Again: these were not people assosciated with the crimes...those people are facing more than not being elected...thse are just party members. Being a memeber of a party is not equivalent withbeing guilty of their crimes: most Nazi party members were left completely alone after WWII...we don't hold them members of someone's party for, say, praticing genocide against the Natives, do we? We hold people accountable for their actions, not their politics. That is, or aside from the 50's, part of what we say freedom is.

    And in that it's their country, shouldn't the people be " allowed" to vote for whoever they want?
     
  6. Refman

    Refman Member

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    Making the rules for reconstruction and placing restrictions on government offices is part and parcel of winning a war. You don't think that the Allied powers had a large say in who ran Japan post-WW II?
     
  7. MacBeth

    MacBeth Member

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    Yes, but...we didn't fight the Japanese to liberate them. We fought them because they attacked us. We have said that we fought Iraq because of the threat they posed, nullified, and to liberate them. To combine the prerogative of the victor with the liberator seems slightly mutually exclusive, no? Liberation and placing restrictions are oxymoronic.
     
  8. treeman

    treeman Member

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    Surprisingly, I actually agree with the bad guys here: it is probably necessary to allow some former Baathists to return to work in the new government.

    Now, I'm not talking about anyone who even has any complaints by anyone (re: war crimes or the like) - those guys are history and can never be let back in. But keep in mind that the Baathist party consisted of hundreds of thousands of beauracrats who ran the day to day business of the country, not just the murdering thugs we booted out. They represent a fount of valuable expertise in government functioning (particularly the more mundane aspects of government) that the new government needs to tap. And the new government admits as much.

    An analogy would be the former USSR. What would have happened to the new republics had former Communist party members been barred from public service? Situation in Iraq is similar, although not nearly as extreme as that example.

    Some of these people should probably go back to work.
     
  9. AMS

    AMS Member

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    yea, this is the reason why you dont go into other countries and put your fingers up ther A##, because your finger will be the one that has **** on it.
     
  10. MacBeth

    MacBeth Member

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    I suppose it is statistically inevitable, but never the less surprising.
     
  11. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    I don't have a problem with minor beauracrats working in the department of fish and wildlife or something. I don't think it is a good idea for some high level Baathist to be their first president. These people have lived under the iron boot of Saddam's regime for a long time. They have also been exposed to a lot of pro-Baathist propoganda (not to mention anti-Western propoganda). It might be a good idea to ease them into a totally free democracy by installing a few leaders early on that we are sure are going to be really looking out for things like human rights. A little bit of pro-American sentiment in the first Iraqi leadership would be nice too. I think a Kurd would be Ideal for thei first president (not gonna happen), but I would hate to see some rich Baathist or charismatic Iranian plant buy the election as well.
     
  12. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Democracy!!!
     
  13. bamaslammer

    bamaslammer Member

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    I don't have a problem with lower-level functionaries working in the new govt. who were former Baathists (I imagine a lot of them were in the Party because it was the only way to get a job and advance), but from what I hear, you had to have some kind of close connection to the Saddam govt. to even get your foot in the door.
     
  14. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Member

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    Good points. If the Bush Administration ignores the will of the Iraqi people, this new "democracy" is doomed to fail before it starts.
     
  15. Lil

    Lil Member

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    i'm sure any unreasonable/unsustainble restrictions we place upon the iraqis will be rectified once we're kicked out of there. at least i hope so. if not, we'll have one severely incompetent govt, which will probably fall, and then the baathists will return anyway. again, some things have a way of sorting themselves out.
     
  16. treeman

    treeman Member

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    Funny sig, No Worries. Now you've taken to advertising your mistruths in full view... When exactly did I say that I lost the bet? Please post link to thread.

    And as a Saddam supporter, you are the last one who should be touting Democracy.
     
  17. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    If the Bush Administration ignores the will of the Iraqi people, this new "democracy" is doomed to fail before it starts.

    What if the will of the Iraqi people is to elect Saddam as their next president? or one his cronies? or some extreme right wing Shiite? or ...

    Democracy can be a b*tch. I suspect GWB thinks democracy is his b*tch though and will probably send a delegation from Florida to make sure the counting is "fair". (For the humor impaired, the last sentence was a ha-ha-funny joke.)
     

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