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Are we losing control of Afghanistan to Taliban rebels

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by underoverup, Aug 19, 2003.

  1. underoverup

    underoverup Member

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    There obviously hasn't been a great deal of focus on the problems that are becoming increasingly intense in Afghanistan. Thankfully a heavy burden can be placed on NATO, we need their help over there more than ever. Ninety dead in one week---is the kind of statistic that will cause a massive revolt against US and NATO troops stationed there.

    Ten Policemen Killed in Worsening Afghan Violence
    By Sayed Salahuddin

    KABUL (Reuters) - Taliban guerrillas have killed 10 policemen, including a provincial police chief, taking the death toll to more than 90 in one of Afghanistan's bloodiest weeks since U.S.-led forces overthrew their strict Islamic regime in 2001.

    Abdul Khaliq, police chief of Logar province, and several other senior police officers from the province south of Kabul were among those killed in an ambush on Monday, Logar's military commander Fazlullah Mojadidi told Reuters.

    He said the police chief had been returning from a funeral for two family members of a police officer who were killed in a rocket attack blamed on the Taliban. "They were in their cars when the incident happened," Mojadidi said. "There is no doubt that the Taliban were behind it."

    News of the attack came after police said two Afghans working for British aid agency Save the Children Fund were wounded in a Taliban attack west of the northern town of Mazar-i-Sharif on Sunday, the second such incident there in two weeks. And early on Tuesday a group of about 20 armed men raided a base of an Afghan mine clearance agency 22 miles southwest of Kabul, beat up some of its staff and stole an ambulance which they later set fire to.

    Patrick Fruchet, external relations officer for the Mine Action Center, told Reuters it was unclear who was responsible.

    The violence has increased doubts about the ability of the U.S.-backed government to hold elections on schedule next June.

    The bloodshed comes just after NATO took command of 5,000 foreign peacekeepers in Kabul on August 11 and prompted fresh calls for the force's role to be extended into the provinces, where a 12,500-strong U.S.-led coalition has been hunting remnants of the Taliban and their al Qaeda allies.

    It also comes ahead of a visit to Kabul on Thursday by Mian Khursheed Mehmood Kasuri, foreign minister of Pakistan. Pakistan is an ally in the U.S.-led "war on terror" but Afghan officials say Islamabad has been allowing an increasingly bold Taliban movement to regroup from its territory.


    SCARE IN KANDAHAR
    In a scare in the volatile southern city of Kandahar, two soldiers were injured, one seriously, in an explosion while shifting munitions at the house of Ahmad Wali Karzai, brother of U.S.-backed President Hamid Karzai. But a local government spokesman said the incident was an accident, and the president's brother was not hurt.

    Bases of the U.S.-led coalition came under attack again on Monday and Tuesday, but no casualties were reported. Coalition bases have come under frequent rocket attack since the Taliban fell but the missiles generally miss their targets and have proven more of a nuisance than a threat.

    However, at least 65 people were killed last Tuesday and Wednesday in incidents nationwide, including a bomb on a bus, a factional clash, fighting between government and Taliban guerrillas in the southeast and an ambush on a local aid group. More than a dozen more soldiers and guerrillas were reported killed in clashes in the southeast at the weekend.

    Last week, a government official called for a tripling of the size of the NATO-led international peacekeeping force and U.N. special envoy Lakhdar Brahimi also repeated a call for the Security Council to expand peacekeeping from the capital.

    But Western diplomats in Kabul doubt the proposal is feasible, involving as it would the deployment of thousands more troops into a risky environment as well as high costs.

    They instead advocate the coalition's deployment of more civilian-military Provincial Reconstruction Teams, but critics say such teams, some 60-70 strong, will be too weak to make a significant difference to worsening security.
     
  2. Friendly Fan

    Friendly Fan PinetreeFM60 Exposed

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    we have never had more than containment control over them, and then not much

    we never engaged a lot of these guys, and the ones we did, we let go and take their weapons with them.
     
  3. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
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    god where did u come from friendly fan? are you trying to take over heyP's posting record? 37+ posts a day...wow!
     
  4. Friendly Fan

    Friendly Fan PinetreeFM60 Exposed

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    I'm on vacation and enjoying doing a lot of nothing.

    This is the most exhausting thing I will do today.

    haha :)
     
  5. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Member

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    Afghanistan is SO 2001. Iraq is where the excitement is now. Catching Saddam is much more important than catching that bin Laden guy. Geez, catch up!
     
  6. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    After all, everyone knows that Saddam was the one behind 9/11, not that silly Bin Laden fellow.
     
  7. underoverup

    underoverup Member

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    I know its important to catch big name fugitives, but that is one area i'm not going to lay on Bush and Co. (its about the only thing). I always think of Eric Rudolph and how hard it was to catch him in the US, I think he ended up basically giving himself up. Osama and Saddam may very well never be caught and I can understand how impossible it must be to find them especially Osama in those remote mts.

    That being said 90 deaths in a week is pretty scary, if we don't get this under control soon we could find ourselves in the same situation as the Soviets. The Afghan rebels had weapons supplied by the US to defeat the Soviets---if the Taliban start receiving some better equipment from China or N. Korea it could change things in a hurry. Remember the Soviets were in complete control of Afghanistan until the Stinger missile made its appearance.
     
  8. Surfguy

    Surfguy Member

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    As long as the Taliban can live and thrive in Pakistan, cross the border into Afghanistan to wreak their havoc, and run back across the border afterwards, then there doesn't seem to be a way to stop this mess. I kind of have to look at Pakistan as the problem. Sure, they have helped catch some terrorists. But, they have a strong Taliban population that does seemingly whatever the hell they want. They use the borders to their advantage while we cannot. Until that changes, then this will go on and on and on.
     
  9. Zion

    Zion Member

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    Not sure about the validity of the article and i really can't be bothered to check. I have provided a link so whoever wants to can check it out for themselves. Anyway i found this about a week ago. I think Clinton summed it up pretty well when he said "Karzai (sp) is the president of Kabul"

    Taliban wrests control of Zambul from US


    Monday, 11 August , 2003, 10:51

    Washington: The Taliban has wrested control of most of Zabul province in southeastern Afghanistan-- for the first time recapturing a province since being ousted from power by the US military in November 2001-- geopolitical analytical firm Stratfor reported.
    Stratfor said its sources have confirmed reports first published on a Web site maintained by Muslim jihadists, jihadunspun.com, that Taliban fighters, in concert with al Qaeda forces, have have retaken Zabul.

    The advance also underscores the stalemate between the United States and its Afghan allies against the Taliban. It indicates that the alliance formed in early 2002 between the Taliban, al Qaeda and Hizb-i-Islami -- the party led by Afghan war lord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar -- is paying off for the militants, Stratfor said in a report.

    It said Zabul is of strategic and military importance for a number of reasons. Taking Zabul cuts off US troops stationed to the south in Kandahar from the bulk of US troops located to the north toward Kabul, it said, and given that Helmand and Oruzgan provinces to the north of Zabul already are Taliban strongholds, the group can better try to isolate US and local provincial troops in Kandahar and eventually attempt to retake Kandahar as well.

    Also, controlling Zabul gives the Taliban a way to cut lines of logistics, troop supply and communication between US and coalition troops in Kandahar and in Paktika and Paktia provinces to the east and along the border with Pakistan.

    The Taliban's ability to retake virtually all of a province of such strategic importance is partly explained by the fact that the south has been the Taliban's traditional stronghold, Stratfor said.

    Beginning in late March and early April -- expecting the United States would be preoccupied with the war in Iraq -- the Taliban perceived an opportunity to begin regrouping, particularly in Zabul, Oruzgan, Kandahar, Helmand, Nimruz and Farah.

    Playing a key role in the Taliban's success has been disaffection among southern Afghans helping the ousted group to recruit fighters and to garner support from the local population. This disaffection stems partly from a sense that development promised by the central government and the United States is proceeding at a snail's pace.

    Taliban attacks have halted virtually all work by international aid agencies, the report said. Also, many Pushtuns reportedly feel they are underrepresented at the national level, even though President Hamid Karzai is an ethnic Push

    http://sify.com/news/international/fullstory.php?id=13222480
     
  10. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Pakistan is a GIANT problem, who along with Saudi Arabia, expose the hollowness of the new pre-emption doctrine trotted out for Iraq.

    The nature of the p roblem in Pakistan? Al Qaeda is their most valuable political resource. Tabling the fact that Pakistan's ISI funded and supported the Taliban (and, by implication, Al qaeda) before the Taliban became uncool, Pakistan has no incentive to get rid of Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Why? because, the minute we get rid of them, Pakistan ceases becoming politically important (like they were prior to 2001, economic sanctions, etc.) and stops getting any attention from Washington. Oh, they'll help us with a minor bust or two here and there, but why end your 15 minutes when you don't have to?
     
  11. underoverup

    underoverup Member

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    The most valuable resource in Afghanistan is the drug trade namely opium. Whoever controls the Heroin has the money and the political clout to dominate a large regions of the country. As for controlling the borders between Pakistan and Afghanistan this will never happen. It is physically impossible for anyone to control an area so remote as the Hindu Kush mountain range. The US can't come close to controlling our border with Mexico-- the government of Pakistan doesn't have the slightest chance of removing Al Qaeda and Taliban factions from its border regions. Imagine the Rocky Mountains running the length of our border with Mexico now add 10,000 more feet to the overall height of the mountains. How can anyone stop a group entrenched in an area like that? The hit and run attacks we are seeing will continue from now until we leave that region of the world.
     
  12. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Is it difficult to clean out the mountains? yeah, absolutely. But the Pakistani ISI has close, close ties to these guys and to the tribal guys who run stuff down there. And, like that Muhammed bigwig they caught a few months ago in Islamabad, a lot of these guys are hiding in plain sight.
     
  13. johnheath

    johnheath Member

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    LOL, you really think that the secular military rulers in Pakistan benefit from having Islamist wackos in their backyard? These Islamists want Musharraf dead- do you realize this?

    Pakistan will always be politically important because they are a large and militarily powerful nation. Do you really think if Pakistan succeeds in stopping the extremists Islamic elements in their country that we will ignore them? I don't think you could be more wrong with your analysis.
     
  14. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    I'm not a supporter of Pakistan, but because the fighers are going back and forth across the border doesn't mean that Pakistan is the real problem. 9/11 hijackers were trained for their missions here in the U.S. the planes they used as weapons took off from the U.S. There are Al Qaeda cells in the U.S. today. That doesn't mean that the U.S. is the problem, just like having many Taliban rebels crossing back and forth between Afghanistan and Pakistan doesn't mean that Pakistan is the problem.
     
  15. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    A little off topic, but for an area of the world that has so much trouble producing food, they sure can pump out the marihuana and heroin. I always assumed you needed good soil to grow that stuff...:confused:
     
  16. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    LOL, having Islamist wackos in their backyard got economic sanctions lifted and made them relevant to US interests again, so yeah, they do benefit.

    Why wouldn't we ignore them? We ignored Afghanistan the moment the Soviets were out. That didn't work out too well. But it's already been shifted down on the priority list, even though casualties mount.
     
    #16 SamFisher, Aug 20, 2003
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2003
  17. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Pakistan is A problem.

    Pakistan has:

    A military dictator who is pro-American, for a price, with tenuous control
    Scores of islamic militants who preach anti-american hhate
    Nuclear weapons
    Home base for Al qaeda and Taliban, and OBL, just hanging out, and an intel agency with close ties to both

    Iraq had:

    A military dictator who was anti-American with complete control
    few active Islamic militants-most had been crushed
    No Nuclear weapons and a program that had been shelved
    A few dudes in caves up north and no proven al qaeda connection

    Which one should we have been more worried about? Look, I'm not supporting thie idea of invading Pakistan tomorrow, but if we are going to go with this take no prisoners approach to ensuring national security, it's far more likely that a suicidal Islamic militant gets his hands on an existing pakistani weapon and using than a saddam getting the mythical iraqi bomb and using it.

    EDIT: Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that there are serious allegations (not provided by AHmed Chalabi or British Intelligence) about Pakistan collaborating with North Korea on their nuclear programs. Yeah, these guys are good friends.
     
    #17 SamFisher, Aug 20, 2003
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2003
  18. FranchiseBlade

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    I agree Pakistan is a problem, but I don't think they are the problem when it comes to Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters still active in Afghanistan.

    I believe that the problem there is the fact that we don't have enough resources, or manpower in Afghanistan to perform the task of stabilization.
     
  19. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't trust the Musharraf or the Pakistani ISI to do anything to catch Taliban/Al Qaeda more than necessary to keep the checks coming, as seymour Hersh has argued.

    http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_hersh.html
     
  20. underoverup

    underoverup Member

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    The clashes in Zabul extend the worst wave of violence in Afghanistan since the Taliban was ousted from power by U.S. air attacks supported by special forces and Afghan ground troops.

    Much of the bloodshed has been blamed on the militia, which has declared a "jihad," or holy war on foreign troops, aid organizations and their supporters.

    "Fighting has escalated today," Hotak told Reuters from Zabul. "The bombardment has intensified, so has the shelling, but the Taliban are out there and bitterly resisting."

    Taliban Offer Resistance; Two U.S. Soldiers Killed
    By Sayed Salahuddin and Saeed Ali Achakzai

    KABUL/SPIN BOLDAK, Afghanistan (Reuters) - Taliban fighters put up stiff resistance on Sunday as Afghan and U.S. forces backed by artillery, jet fighters and attack helicopters continued to hunt hundreds of militants, an official said.

    Khalil Hotak, intelligence chief in the southern province of Zabul where the battle entered its seventh day, said 14 Taliban guerrillas were killed on Saturday, taking the ousted Islamic militia's reported losses since Monday to more than 90.

    The U.S. military has confirmed 33 Taliban deaths during the first three days of fighting, which has involved the largest concentration of fighters from the hard-line regime since the movement was driven from power late in 2001. In a separate clash, two U.S. soldiers were killed near their base at Shkin, in the eastern province of Paktika a few miles from the Pakistani border. A third soldier who was wounded was in a stable condition and awaiting evacuation.

    A U.S. combat patrol came under fire early on Sunday, and four attackers were killed in the ensuing battle, a U.S. military statement said.

    It did not say who the suspected assailants were, but recent attacks on Afghan government forces in Paktika have been blamed on Taliban guerrillas crossing from Pakistan.

    In Zabul, Hotak said an unknown number of Taliban were stationed in the Kohi Sero area, the Taliban's main stronghold and the target of bombing by U.S. and allied fighters and heavy artillery fire from infantry forces.

    "Fighting has escalated today," Hotak told Reuters from Zabul. "The bombardment has intensified, so has the shelling, but the Taliban are out there and bitterly resisting."


    MAJOR OPERATION
    Hundreds of Afghan troops backed by several dozen U.S.-led special operations soldiers had overrun Taliban hideouts in various parts of Dai Chopan district since the start of the operation, Hotak added.

    The clashes involve up to 1,000 Afghan troops and a similar number of Taliban guerrillas.

    Zabul's governor Hafizullah told Reuters late on Saturday six Afghan soldiers died during the whole operation and four injured. Two soldiers from U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan have been injured during hostilities in Zabul and one died of wounds sustained in an accident there.

    The clashes in Zabul extend the worst wave of violence in Afghanistan since the Taliban was ousted from power by U.S. air attacks supported by special forces and Afghan ground troops.

    Much of the bloodshed has been blamed on the militia, which has declared a "jihad," or holy war on foreign troops, aid organizations and their supporters.

    Hafizullah said Taliban holed up in the area of Chinaran had been surrounded, a claim a Taliban official denied.

    Mullah Abdul Jabar, recently appointed governor of Zabul by the Taliban, told Reuters early on Sunday by satellite telephone that his forces were easily defending themselves and inflicting heavy casualties on their enemies.

    He also said the Taliban had downed a U.S. helicopter on Thursday, and that five U.S. soldiers had been killed in the incident. Hafizullah dismissed the report.

    The U.S. military contributes about 10,000 troops to the 12,500-strong force hunting remnants of the Taliban and the al Qaeda network of Osama bin Laden it once sheltered.
     

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