1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Are Cameras the New Guns?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Lil Pun, Jun 2, 2010.

  1. Lil Pun

    Lil Pun Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 1999
    Messages:
    34,143
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    Interesting and upsetting.....

    http://gizmodo.com/5553765/are-cameras-the-new-guns

    In response to a flood of Facebook and YouTube videos that depict police abuse, a new trend in law enforcement is gaining popularity. In at least three states, it is now illegal to record any on-duty police officer.

    Even if the encounter involves you and may be necessary to your defense, and even if the recording is on a public street where no expectation of privacy exists.

    The legal justification for arresting the "shooter" rests on existing wiretapping or eavesdropping laws, with statutes against obstructing law enforcement sometimes cited. Illinois, Massachusetts, and Maryland are among the 12 states in which all parties must consent for a recording to be legal unless, as with TV news crews, it is obvious to all that recording is underway. Since the police do not consent, the camera-wielder can be arrested. Most all-party-consent states also include an exception for recording in public places where "no expectation of privacy exists" (Illinois does not) but in practice this exception is not being recognized.

    Massachusetts attorney June Jensen represented Simon Glik who was arrested for such a recording. She explained, "[T]he statute has been misconstrued by Boston police. You could go to the Boston Common and snap pictures and record if you want." Legal scholar and professor Jonathan Turley agrees, "The police are basing this claim on a ridiculous reading of the two-party consent surveillance law - requiring all parties to consent to being taped. I have written in the area of surveillance law and can say that this is utter nonsense."

    The courts, however, disagree. A few weeks ago, an Illinois judge rejected a motion to dismiss an eavesdropping charge against Christopher Drew, who recorded his own arrest for selling one-dollar artwork on the streets of Chicago. Although the misdemeanor charges of not having a peddler's license and peddling in a prohibited area were dropped, Drew is being prosecuted for illegal recording, a Class I felony punishable by 4 to 15 years in prison.

    In 2001, when Michael Hyde was arrested for criminally violating the state's electronic surveillance law - aka recording a police encounter - the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court upheld his conviction 4-2. In dissent, Chief Justice Margaret Marshall stated, "Citizens have a particularly important role to play when the official conduct at issue is that of the police. Their role cannot be performed if citizens must fear criminal reprisals…." (Note: In some states it is the audio alone that makes the recording illegal.)

    The selection of "shooters" targeted for prosecution do, indeed, suggest a pattern of either reprisal or an attempt to intimidate.

    Glik captured a police action on his cellphone to document what he considered to be excessive force. He was not only arrested, his phone was also seized.

    On his website Drew wrote, "Myself and three other artists who documented my actions tried for two months to get the police to arrest me for selling art downtown so we could test the Chicago peddlers license law. The police hesitated for two months because they knew it would mean a federal court case. With this felony charge they are trying to avoid this test and ruin me financially and stain my credibility."

    Hyde used his recording to file a harassment complaint against the police. After doing so, he was criminally charged.

    In short, recordings that are flattering to the police - an officer kissing a baby or rescuing a dog - will almost certainly not result in prosecution even if they are done without all-party consent. The only people who seem prone to prosecution are those who embarrass or confront the police, or who somehow challenge the law. If true, then the prosecutions are a form of social control to discourage criticism of the police or simple dissent.

    A recent arrest in Maryland is both typical and disturbing.

    On March 5, 24-year-old Anthony John Graber III's motorcycle was pulled over for speeding. He is currently facing criminal charges for a video he recorded on his helmet-mounted camera during the traffic stop.

    The case is disturbing because:

    1) Graber was not arrested immediately. Ten days after the encounter, he posted some of he material to YouTube, and it embarrassed Trooper J. D. Uhler. The trooper, who was in plainclothes and an unmarked car, jumped out waving a gun and screaming. Only later did Uhler identify himself as a police officer. When the YouTube video was discovered the police got a warrant against Graber, searched his parents' house (where he presumably lives), seized equipment, and charged him with a violation of wiretapping law.

    2) Baltimore criminal defense attorney Steven D. Silverman said he had never heard of the Maryland wiretap law being used in this manner. In other words, Maryland has joined the expanding trend of criminalizing the act of recording police abuse. Silverman surmises, "It's more [about] ‘contempt of cop' than the violation of the wiretapping law."

    3) Police spokesman Gregory M. Shipley is defending the pursuit of charges against Graber, denying that it is "some capricious retribution" and citing as justification the particularly egregious nature of Graber's traffic offenses. Oddly, however, the offenses were not so egregious as to cause his arrest before the video appeared.

    Almost without exception, police officials have staunchly supported the arresting officers. This argues strongly against the idea that some rogue officers are overreacting or that a few cops have something to hide. "Arrest those who record the police" appears to be official policy, and it's backed by the courts.

    Carlos Miller at the Photography Is Not A Crime website offers an explanation: "For the second time in less than a month, a police officer was convicted from evidence obtained from a videotape. The first officer to be convicted was New York City Police Officer Patrick Pogan, who would never have stood trial had it not been for a video posted on Youtube showing him body slamming a bicyclist before charging him with assault on an officer. The second officer to be convicted was Ottawa Hills (Ohio) Police Officer Thomas White, who shot a motorcyclist in the back after a traffic stop, permanently paralyzing the 24-year-old man."

    When the police act as though cameras were the equivalent of guns pointed at them, there is a sense in which they are correct. Cameras have become the most effective weapon that ordinary people have to protect against and to expose police abuse. And the police want it to stop.

    Happily, even as the practice of arresting "shooters" expands, there are signs of effective backlash. At least one Pennsylvania jurisdiction has reaffirmed the right to video in public places. As part of a settlement with ACLU attorneys who represented an arrested "shooter," the police in Spring City and East Vincent Township adopted a written policy allowing the recording of on-duty policemen.

    As journalist Radley Balko declares, "State legislatures should consider passing laws explicitly making it legal to record on-duty law enforcement officials."
     
  2. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Messages:
    65,257
    Likes Received:
    32,974
    Yet they wanna take our pictures at traffic lights.

    Rocket River
     
  3. napalm06

    napalm06 Huge Flopping Fan

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Messages:
    26,933
    Likes Received:
    30,550
    Ha, good point RR.

    This is the absolute wrong way to go about fixing this. Who could expect anything less...
     
  4. Red Chocolate

    Red Chocolate Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2001
    Messages:
    1,576
    Likes Received:
    309
    When you wake up to the fact that you've lived in a police state growing in power since 9/11, this won't be surprising. The best thing to do is for the public to continue filming them, as many of these laws are 'bluffs', like in poker. A little civil disobedience will at least prolong the agony.

    Remember those days when cops worked 'for' the people? Long gone.
     
  5. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,168
    Likes Received:
    48,335
    This is the kind of things that we criticize authoritarian states for.
     
  6. peleincubus

    peleincubus Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2002
    Messages:
    26,765
    Likes Received:
    15,076
    perfect reply
     
  7. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    21,116
    Likes Received:
    22,582
    Sounds like home. lol
     
  8. trueroxfan

    trueroxfan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    4,170
    Likes Received:
    143
    LOL, what a fking joke. We pay their salaries, they are here to protect us, they have turned against us in the past, you're telling me I can't record them to ensure that they are doing their job? To ensure I am not being wrongfully accused, persecuted, or abused by the police? Sometimes I feel we have the dumbest politicians running our country. We have some policies that are just down right r****ded.
     
  9. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,168
    Likes Received:
    48,335
    A question for the Clutchfans legal minds. Given the prevalence of CCTV cameras in public locations and shooting public locations how does this law relate to those? Can we sue businesses and individuals who use those cameras since we haven't given explicit consent to be filmed?
     
  10. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2002
    Messages:
    14,137
    Likes Received:
    1,882
    Pretty sure there will be cases heading to SC shortly.
     
  11. BetterThanI

    BetterThanI Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    Messages:
    4,181
    Likes Received:
    381
    Yup. This is a temporary problem. There is no way these "laws" against recording in public stand up in the SC.

    Still, I wonder what the stance is in Arizona. If their position for stopping Mexican-Americans on the street under suspicion of illegal immigration really is "if you're not breaking the law, you have nothing to fear", shouldn't that apply to recording the police as well?
     
  12. Severe Rockets Fan

    Severe Rockets Fan Takin it one stage at a time...

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2001
    Messages:
    5,923
    Likes Received:
    1,490
    The only reason a cop wouldn't want to be filmed on duty is because they have something to hide...many of these guys are use to the power and know they'll have some of it taken away if they have to be 'good' all the time.
     
  13. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2006
    Messages:
    27,105
    Likes Received:
    3,757
    I hope this creates some protest where everyone films cops all the time. they are public figures and should act like they are being filmed at all times on duty.
     
  14. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Messages:
    65,257
    Likes Received:
    32,974
    Cops often employ the double Standard. This is no different.
    Everytime they shoot some . . .they say . . I was scared
    but . . if someone shoots them on a no-knock warrant . .they scream how it is UNACCEPTABLE AT ALL NO MATTER WHAT!!!

    Rocket River
     
  15. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2006
    Messages:
    27,105
    Likes Received:
    3,757
    A no-knock warrant where they all decide for some reason to dress up in all black with ski masks.

    [​IMG]

    "Oh hi officer Bob! what seems to be the trouble?"
     
  16. mc mark

    mc mark Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    471
    Don't most police cars have cameras to film traffic stops and such?
     
  17. BetterThanI

    BetterThanI Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    Messages:
    4,181
    Likes Received:
    381
    Yes, and yet somehow, the cameras seem to magically "malfunction" and/or stop recording when it's convenient for the officer.

    If the cops can be trusted enough to be filmed by dashboard cams, why not by private citizens?
     
  18. BetterThanI

    BetterThanI Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    Messages:
    4,181
    Likes Received:
    381
    Smile! You're on candid camera...

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/419pJO-rLCM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/419pJO-rLCM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    Oh, but we don't need to film them. :rolleyes:
     
  19. Red Chocolate

    Red Chocolate Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2001
    Messages:
    1,576
    Likes Received:
    309
    It used to be that the guys wearing the ski masks were clearly the 'bad guy'. Now society is reshaping to where they're supposed to be the 'good guy'. See a problem here?
     
  20. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596

Share This Page