Arab & Muslim countries denounce London bombings

DaDakota - It's refreshing to see you've softened your stance recently regarding the Arabs and Muslims, but I disagree with your basic premise. Forgive me for my pessimism, but there simply will not be any worlwide peace in the foreseeable future until BOTH sides make concessions. These denouncings of the London bombings are nothing new - it's all the same lip service and posturing. They don't hate us "because we are free" as our president likes to have us believe. Only a fool would believe that. It's a vicious cycle that doesn't seem to have any end in sight. If we continue to impose state terrorism upon a sovereign nation, why do we expect any other reaction but hostility from Arab civilians? It doesn't matter that their puppet governments have denounced the bombings, when the tensions only pave the way for a new generation of civilians filled with hatred for the U.S.

 

Is there evidence that the majority of any of these populations "hate" the US? Which of these nations have been the victim of (US) State Sponsored terrorism?

 

I'd like to reccommend a wonderful book entitled "What's So Great About America" by Dinesh D'Souza. He (being an immigrant from India) claims that this is exactly what many of the fundamentalists actually committing these terrorist acts do feel. They don't like the autonomy of America as they feel it has led us to be an atheistic and opulent society. The guy was involved in the Bush Sr. administration but he provides a rather balanced view of everything pointing out the flaws in both sides of many arguments about America.

Despite the fact that you may not feel that is the reason there is no clear cut evidence that it is indeed not the case. I think the struggles in the Middle East to keep many governments from switching to democracy is somewhat showing of the fundamentalist attitude towards democracy and the freedom we enjoy. I'm not saying that this is the only reason but to say it has no say in the matter whatsoever is rather misleading, I feel.

I also like how you've referred to those that don't agree with you as fools. Way to keep an open mind!

 

I will not believe they're serious until I see a million muslim march replete with "not in my name" placards held high for all al queda-dom to see.

 

well i'll be damned. saudis doing terrorist acts against the west for being opulent? how in hell do you buy that? have you been to the gulf ever? they are the most opulent extravagent bastards around.

look theres a reason why canada isn't attacked. an pray tell if there is all that much difference in the 'freedom' and general lifestyle of canadians and americans.

terrorism is not justified. but there are certainly roots from where it starts. its not about 'caving' to the terrorists but realizing how to win a war. its by showing the middle east that america isn't opposed to their self-rule and/or their socieites. this war really is about the hearts and minds of the muslim world.

as far as the muslim world hating america i doubt the majority 'hates' the US. but the overwhelming majority has an unfavorable opinion of the US and certainly staunchly opposses US foreign policy.

 

I make no distinction between state terrorism and conventional "terrorism" when the end result in both instances is senseless killing.

 

I think you are greatly mistaken. Just yards outside Islam's holiest site, the Kabah, sits a McDonald's and KFC. Muslims absolutely adore the United States way of life. I can confidently tell you that if VISA situations were nonexistant, the vast majority of Muslims living outside the U.S would come. Have you been to any Muslim nations? There is no end to the opulence in Saudi Arabia. And as "insane man" pointed out, why have there been no attacks carried out against Canada? I still hold firm to my statement that only a fool would really believe that this enmity towards the United States is in due part to "our freedoms."

And I think therein lies the problem. We can choose to ignore the REAL cause and hold firm to our President's macho punch lines of bravado that "they hate us because of our freedom", or "freedom always prevails over terror" or we can look at this as a worldwide community, let go of our jingoism, and attack the root of this cause. No matter how much it may wound our pride, we must admit that the United States foreign policy in the Middle East is the cause of these attacks, because only a fool would believe otherwise. It's staring you right in the face. You can continue to be bold and haughty, but I'll tell you that bombs will not win this war. This is a war of the minds of the Muslim world. A new generation of Muslims will grow up overseas with even more hatred to our government's policies. I don't want to go to my grave the victim of a terrorist attack just because our country chose to hold on to our president's dauntless punch lines and chose to ignore the real problem in fear of appearing weak.

 

The terrorists want to subjugate the people that they propose to save a la The Taliban. Would you say the same of the US effort in Afghanistan or Iraq?

In that light there is a hatred of freedom involved don't you think?

Here's what you wrote that threw me off: "If we continue to impose state terrorism upon a sovereign nation, why do we expect any other reaction but hostility from Arab civilians?"

You made it sound as if every Arab civilian hated the US and what the US stands for.

 

Anyone who thinks the Arabs "hate us" for our "extravagent" lifestyle hasn't been to the Gulf, from which, btw, most 9/11 attackers came (Really, how "extravagent" can your life be if the average American has MORE debt than savings? Don't be fooled by the majority of those riding around in cars, buying expensive houses, etc, because they don't actually own them. It is all on credit). Many of the 9/11 attackers were from middle-class families, well-educated, could have made lots of money and a pretty decent lives for themselves had they wanted to. So that "they hate us for our freedom" misstatement is too shallow to hold any truth to it.

Let's see, Al-Qaeda, since declaring war on the U.S., has attaked American installations everywhere they could (embassies, carriers stationed near Yemen, etc.), thye have attacked the Spanish (whom were part of the coalition in Iraq), they have attacked the British (the 2nd largest contributor of troops in Iraq), and have warned of similar attacks in Italy and Denmark for their role in Iraq. Moreover, they have conducted terrorist attacks inside Saudi Arabia (attempting to destabilize the regime there), have targeted Egypt from time to time (Mubarak regime is despised by he Al-Zawahiri, who was an egyptian doctor that was arrested/tortured in Egypt before he fled the counry), and on and on and on...

What does everything I have just mentioned tell you? It tells you that despite the fact that Al-Qaeda are a bunch of thuggish mofos, there is little doubt that there IS a rationale beind their attacks. They don't just randomly kill people in various countries around the world, they target those whom they believe are waging war against them.

So it's a matter of practical thinking more than a simplistic anti-Western view. Their targets so far have been anything but unexpected (in fact, Londoners were saying after the bombings there that they have been told over and over again by British authorities that a terrorist attack was to take place sooner or later, so they knew it was just a matter of time, which apparenlty is why they have been more calm than many outsiders expected. It wasn't like 9/11 at all when Americans were completely caught off-guard by the attacks).

As far as the condemnations, DD, what did you honestly expect? Did you expect them to come out and say, "Those innocent bastards in London had it coming!"?? It was expected really.

But I will tell you something interesting though. I was watching the Egyptian Satellite Channel a few days ago right after the London bombings took place, and they had on the high Imam of the Al-Azhar mosque (who is considered by many to be the highest religious authority in the Islamic world), and he carried out a scathing verbal assault on those who conducted the London bombings, and also those who killed the Egyptian ambassador in Iraq, even calling them "Kafara" at one point (meaning unbelievers), and claiming that they are the type of people whom God described in the Koran as those who spread injustice on earth, cause bloodshed, and are the enemies within. In fact, his tone was so unusually harsh (he is known to be a quiet, layed back person who speaks softly and always preaches moderation and co-existence) that my brother-in-law was jokingly asking me, "So, how long do you think it will take until the Sheikh will be shot by extremists while going to work in the morning?" Sadly, though, he wasn't really joking, because that is very much a likely fate for any religious leader who denounces Al-Qaeda or other terrorists for their actions. They don't take criticism very well.

 

i'm just glad DD sees that all muslims are not terrorists ....hopefully you will see that it is a peacful religon as well....

 

Even if they did, it wouldnt get the media hype enough to get from the streets to your TV.

http://www.freemuslims.org/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2005/05/14/VI2005051401282.html




(the picture above depicts
an Iranian mother and daughter,
lighting a candle in the memory of those
who have lost loved ones in
the tragedy of September 11th.
For more details on this
mass candle light vigil, see below)



palestinian moments of silence


pics from iran



bengali muslims

 

Aboslutely right. I heard a muslim author say before that people always say they want to hear mainstream moderate muslims denounce terrorism, and why doesn't that happen more? He said they are screaming about it, writing books, signing petitions, etc. They are denouncing it, but a lot of people just aren't listening.

 

What kind of criminal justice system do these nations have? Effective, ineffective or corrupt? Do they ever arrest the members of these terrorist groups?

 

American will NEVER win the war on terror until we can collectively understand what we are fighting. We are NOT fighting muslims. We are fighting a subset of people who happen to be muslim.

Insane man, you repeatedly make generalizing mistakes. It is partly the inability of the American public to make this distinction that enabled Bush to wage war against Iraq. So let me use you as an example:

Saudis aren't terrorists. That implies ALL Saudis are terrorists which is wrong. There are a handfull of people who happen to be from Saudia Arabia that are terrorists. Big difference.

Yes, that's because Canada doesn't invade other countries. Canada also has a long history of being very accepting of other people's way of life. If you go to Toronto, that is the REAL melting-pot of the world.

That's incorrect. We are not at war with the muslim world. We are at war with some terrorists who happen to be muslim. Big difference.

How does that make muslim's any difference than the rest of the world? Most of Europe hates US policy as well. Even much of England and 49% of Americans hates US forgeign policy.

 

Both Yemen and Saudi Arabia arrest them. Saudi Arabi even beheaded them. It is relatively certain that there is less crime in these nations. That doesn't mean that their criminal justice system is humane, respectful of human rights, but they do occasionally arrest terrorists.

 

i dont disagree with most of the stuff you said. thank you for clarifying what i was trying to say.

that being said i do believe to win the war on terror you have to win the hearts and minds of the average muslim. and as far as canada being accepting i think america is too from a broad general prespective. way moreso than europe.

 

No, we are fighting not just that subset, but an attitude by many more Muslims that encourages, or at least doesn't discourage the behavior of the terrorists. This has been especially true in the UK.

I'm holding my breath waiting for the Milllion Muslim March against terror.

 

Million Muslim March! American never had a million Christian march after the Oklahoma bombing! Why would Muslims do such a thing? That is, frankly, a dumb thing to say. Peaceful muslims are otherwise living their life in peace (unlike African-Americans in the 60's). If they protest, they will become a target just like us. Why don't you fly to Isreal and start a million man march of some sort? Why won't you? Cause it won't make any difference and you might get shot or blown up.

So until America quits the attitude similar that you just spewed, Muslim's in general will continue to be sympathetic with the extremists.

During the civil rights movement, black Americans didn't necessarily condon the level of violence that Malcome X advocated however many were sympothetic to his messages. Why? Because of the attitude of white America. Blacks were still being persecuted with little or no help from the government.

Right now, America has an attitude problem and we do NOTHING to assist muslims. Instead of helping, we keep saying things like we are at war against muslims. This is why the peaceful muslims will continue to sympathize with the extremists...similar to blacks in the 60's. What's more, we disguise the Iraq war as a humanitarian war...which few truely beleive it is. I'd bet most muslims beleive that war is about oil!

Had we not waged war against Iraq and lumped that as part of the "War on Terriorism"... when they never even invaded us... then perhaps muslims would trust America more. Too late to fix that now. Only time and consistent, peaceful behavior can regain their trust. But we are far from peaceful behavior right now.

 

I'm not personally an expert on the Oklahoma City Bombings (the "reason" for them I mean). Did McVeigh and McNichols say that they were doing those acts in the name of God?

I'm not trying to sound like an idiot but the acts happened when I was in elementary school so I don't recall if anything like that was ever said (although it's quite possible). If you have any evidence of this would you mind posting a link? (Again, only because I personally don't know, I'm not calling you a liar).