Okay, I keep reading that Collier is "another Matt Bullard" or "an unathletic white guy" over and over. The former label is obviously crap, as anyone could easily tell just from looking at Collier's college stats (I didn't know Bullard can rebound and block shots? ). The latter may be true (I honestly do not know), but is less important if he has size and talent. But now to the point of this thread: I honestly have never seen Collier play, though I have read many of his scouting reports. I also have read a lot of threads on this BBS proposing a Collier for Croshere trade. From the previously mentioned scouting reports, he sounds a lot like a taller version of Croshere (again, I emphasize, I have never seen Collier play). Obviously, Collier has a size advantage and Croshere might have a quickness advantage (he would need it to play SF). My question is this: What are the similarities and differences between Croshere an Collier? Let me put it another way, what qualities does Croshere have that makes him a far and away better choice than Collier? ------------------ [This message has been edited by Launch Pad (edited June 30, 2000).]
Austin.....foot speed as already mentioned and experience in the NBA. Jason......height as already mentioned and a smaller paycheck. Mango ------------------ Eat more spinach! Live long and prosper! Donate blood! Smeg will be assimilated. Now...back to updating The Serious Police Files.
I'm not sure this is a valid comparison. The standard for Collier in the West is probably Wallace or perhaps Garnett-- a 4 who can go 5 sometimes. Langhi was our shot at finding a Croshere clone. I think you are understimasting Coshere's game. He has been getting better and better, and I expect him to keep working at it. I would take him over either draft choice, in fact, I would trade them both for Croshere. ------------------
pere-I'd start Collier over KT every day of the week? You wouldn't? Wallace and Garnett are rail thin superathletes. Collier while not being a stiff, isn't oozing with athleticism. I agree that Rudy doesn't want both. I also think we're better off keeping Collier, then focusing free agency/trades on an enforcer/rebounder type, of a backup center or PF (read-Foyle/Fortson). ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas.
They gave up a 2nd round pick to get Langhi. I suspect they will keep him. Why else would they have made that sacrifice to get him? Langhi is a very big 3 who creates mis-matches on offense. And Collier is a "shooting" 4 who creates spaces and is a threat to nail the 3-pointer. Langhi can be on the floor with Hakeem and Cato (for defensive help) while Collier will play the 4 when Shandon or Cuttino play the 3 and slice up the defense. Although, I hear that Langhi's (and Collier's) athletcisim is being vastly under-rated by the pros here. I think it is time for Bull to assume his new Rocket career. ------------------ There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count and those who can't. [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited June 30, 2000).]
I agree with the assessment that with the additions of these new players that the Rockets do not need Austin Croshere. I would say keep both Collier and Langhi then look for an defensive minded tall SF and a rebounder/enforcer at the 4/5. This does not have to be done immediately if the right players are not available this offseason, but those are the pieces this team needs to eventually add. Then with some experience, they should be well on their way. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
oeilpere Thanks for adding a little more to the assessment of Croshere vs. Cato. I do, however, disagree with this statement: Many people worry that KT cannot be productive at the PF, because he is only 6'8", but also, want Croshere. Well, Croshere is listed at 6'9" and gives up 25 lbs to KT, so he's not going to have a significant size advantage against the better PFs of the west. At SF, you have to wonder if he's fast enough to keep up with the majority of the SFs in the league. That's 2 huge question marks right there. As for your proposed roster effects: I agree with the 1st 2 sentences there ("viable", not great), but the 3rd sentence isn't clear to me. How would keeping Collier preclude the "movement of less essential players in any type of trade"? In other words, what is to prevent the Rocks from trading said "less essential players" (I'm reading this "Williams and Drew", since you proposed it ), in another trade unrelated to aquiring Croshere? Please clarify. I also disagree with Croshere creating more versatile line-ups. Both Collier and Croshere can play PF, so the main difference in their effect on the line-ups will be whether a long range shooting SF or a long range shooting C gives you more variabilty. IMHO I'll take the C, because SF shooters aren't exactly rare in this league, but long shooting Cs are fairly uncommon. There's something to be said about a line-up where all 5 guys can hit the 3. With this kind of offense, you spread the floor a lot more and open the driving lanes for the guards. Now that is an intriguing statement. Is that just conjecture or do you know something the rest of us mere mortals don't ------------------
I was hoping for more info than that, but thanks Mango. Okay, I'm going to throw out the differences in veteran experience. 3 years as a bench player is not enough experience to be a determining factor, especially considering that we likely won't be a championship contender for a few years to come (sorry optimists ). By then, they will both have veteran experience. Okay, if the only difference between the 2 players is salary, 3" of height, 20 lbs of weight, and a difference in foot speed, then this begs the question: Is it really worth it to engineer a trade for a similar player knowing that you will be forced to give up another promising role player or 2 to make the salaries match (bye bye KT )? I would think that it isn't, just based on the following facts: 1. Much of Croshere's hype can be based on the LA series, where, if he wasn't left unguarded, he was guarded by below average PFs. His regular season numbers are decent, but not worth any of the packages that BBSers have proposed to land him. 2. Croshere's foot speed isn't exactly amazing either. Also, Rudy has commented that Collier's foot speed was "surprising". Another thing, let me dispell the myth that every PF in the league moves like Garnett, Webber, or Wallace. IMHO size is much more important than speed, when it comes to defense of low post players. This brings me to my next point . . . 3. You can't teach height. I know . . . height is not everything, but IMHO if you have 2 similar players, you're usually better off taking the taller one. 4. I like Collier's potential to play PF or C over Croshere's ability to play slow SF or undersized PF. There seem to be a lot more quality SFs in the league and in drafts than PFs and especially, Cs. Again, keep in mind that my opinions are based on the belief that the only difference between the 2 players is size and foot speed. If anyone has any insights on further difference that make Croshere a better choice than Collier, please enlighten me. ------------------
has austin even shown any signs of wanting to come here? i hope he has.. check this site out: http://gmspalace.homestead.com/wink2000.html ------------------ johnny "red" kerr:i'm glad the bulls did'nt draft steve francis. dan roan: why!!!!! johnny red kerr:because he would forever be compared to michael jordan.
Roster Position: 1.Austin = Instant starter 2000-2001 season, no question mark. 2.Jason = Backup, learner, second string (at least initially), a question mark. Roster Effect: 1. Movement of players presently on the roster would change depending on who (Austin or Jason)was a Rocket. Croshere gives us a viable starter/option at the 3/4. That allows movement of less essential players in any type of trade, etc... 2. Austin would give RT the luxury of a greater number of combos to put on the floor due to his ability to hold his position(s) as a starter. Possibilities: Although I doubt RT would want BOTH these guys here, the possibility exists to do just that. ------------------
