Any thoughts? I thought it fit into the thread about the Batallion Cartoon, but that was pretty full and got off topic to some extent. I tend to agree with Rooney. I hear black people call each other nig*** all the time. One girl explained to to me like "it's not nig***, it's *****'. And we can do it to each other because WE'RE using it.' I guess they still see white people as using it negatively? Just asking. There's too much in the world that everyone has to tiptoe around. It seems to me in general that the way to overcome issues like this is not just tolerance or open-mindedness, but knowledge. Most of the people I associate with on a regular basis are well educated people. And they tend to take to these issues more lightly. My aunt was recently dating a hispanic man. We could make jokes about wetbacks or other "politically incorrect" terms or issues and he would not be offended. In fact, he had his own jokes too. People who get offended by slurs or jokes are cartoons do so because of a lack of education and insecurities. How can you get offended at something that is not intended to offend you unless there is some truth behing it or you feel insecure about it? The professor for my History of the Modern Middle East class is not hurt or offended by the stereotyping of middle easterners since 9/11. But she is smart, successful, and well educated. Maybe there is some truth to what Rooney is saying. (On an interesting note, when I was previewing this post, the only word it would not let me type was nig***. Kikes, chinks, wetbacks, spics...those were not considered inappropriate. Why are those labels considered better?)
My wife and her best friend address each other affectionately as "b****." Man, if I launched that I'd be on the sofa for quite a while.
No, I hate it all too. I also hate affirmative action. When used correctly, it's a great thing. When law schools were not accepting women, they used affirmative action. Before long, enrollment was about equal and there was no need for it anymore. That's how it should work too with minorities, but it hasn't. It seems that everything something is given to them, they want more.
I would never use the n-word and am offended when other people say it. I dont care if blacks use it with eachother, because who am I to tell them how to talk? But, when someone uses the n-word, its not talking, its being a jerk. I in no way think its funny or acceptable even if it is a joke.
What exactly is the problem do you want to use any of these words? Do you feel it is unfair that you can't use nig***? Have there been situations where you've felt it was appropriate to use these words. i've never found the need to use any of those words so the fact that it is considered okay for some people to use it and not for others does not bother me. I don't want to use them anyway.
I think you have that a little backwards there missy. It's a lack of education and diversity that breeds racism and slurs. In addition, who are you to judge what is intended to be offensive and what is simply descriptive, especially assuming that you're part of the white majority? The word slur by definition is a disparaging remark, it's not simply a descriptive politically incorrect term as you are trying to imply. Just because your aunt once dated some hispanic guy who wasn't offended that you could tell your racist jokes in front of him doesn't mean they're not offensive and wrong. One day you'll tell the wrong joke in front of the wrong person, then try explaining to them that you're not a racist and that the reason they're offended by your slurs is because they're poorly educated and insecure.
I prefer to stop this sentence there. People who get offended too easily are cartoons. Think about that.... They are not to be taken seriously. Of course, they're serious. Which makes our not taking them seriously even more of an insult, not to mention an insider joke... This is the old "methinks you're a racist evil whitey oppressor V. methinks you've got somethin up yer arse" argument. Bend over and let 'em know who's Boss. We called it "mooning" in my days... Good way to say "F* You!"
I like the way you put that. To tell you the truth, I don't have a problem when black people refer to their friends or family as "*****s" or "my *****". I don't say it, but then I don't feel comfortable saying it. The only time I use something along those lines is the rare occurence when I tell my wife "***** please". This term was used "by her" and "to me", even after I told her I didn't like it. She persisted, so I felt if she could use it with me, then I could use it with her. Neither one of us uses it in a demeaning way, and it is now more of a joke than anything. I do have a problem when a black person (or any person) uses the term "nigge*" as a derogatory word. I absolutely exploded the other day at work after having someone (a co-worker) come up to me and make a statement using that word (I was already in a bad mood and had a short fuse). In that instance that guy was white. I do tend to get more angry when I hear a person who is not black use the word as an insult. But, I still don't like the word to be used by anyone. My mother-in-law (for those who are new, my wife's black), has (over the last 13 years) used the word... maybe 2 or 3 times. Each time she's said it, and noticed I was within earshot (regardless of whether I heard her or not) she has apologized to ME for saying it. All but one time, I was like "huh?" (because I hadn't heard her). I will teach my kids that the word is unacceptable, and I will discourage them from using similar non-derogatory words.
You'll discourage them from using "non-derogatory" words? The logic: "I will not tell my kids to call people ni**as". As opposed to "It's OK if my kids call people nig...as"... I think that you meant that you'd discourage them from using derogatory words, DREAMer. Since there are sticklers here for logic, it's only fair to point out these things... "non-derogatory" words are what political correctness tells us to say. Teach them to your kids, but please don't use them yourself. (at least use them correctly)
Okay, I've got to back up my girl here. She didn't mean "It seems that everything something is given to them, they want more," quite the way it sounded. She meant it in the way that many special interest groups can never be happy, and in that sense, I agree with her. I think many of the special interest groups have an agenda that includes more division than harmony, with more special provisions based on their particular race, often at the expense of other races. I can speak for her here, since we just got off the phone, and I asked her about that specifically. She'll come back and apologize tomorrow (she went to bed) and clarify her statement; she just asked me to do it for her for the moment. --- Two of by best buds (one in college and one now) are Mexican dudes. Once we got to know each other, they both were constantly asking me to tell all the Mexican jokes I knew. I had a hard time with this because 1) I find racial jokes funny and 2) these guys are two of my closest friends and the last thing I wanted to do was insult them and/or give them the wrong impression. But I relented and now we tell each other every joke we ever hear. No one gets offended because we know each other so well that we can laugh at ourselves together in spite of ourselves. --- As for the n*gger vs *****, the two words DO mean different things, and depending on who speaks the words and to whom they speak the words, the meaning can take on a thousand implications. I've had black friends who weren't offended by my use of it (as long as I pronounced it "*****"), but I sure would never use it with someone I didn't know very well. Same thing with all the standard curse words: You just KNOW who you can and cannot use certain words and language around, and even then, you also know when it is and when it isn't appropriate. --- As for black people using the word themselves, here's my theory: Simply put, using the words of your oppressors takes away the power of the words themselves, making the words less harmful. (its not like black people only started calling themselves by that name yesterday)
Let me clear some things up for anyone who cares. I'm not going to argue about who is right and wrong, because there are no real answers. The word in itself if a bad word and I do not like it. I do not want to use the word "nig***." I think NO ONE should be able to use the word, in any sense, good or bad. I think it's unfair though for african-americans to be able to use it and not anyone else though. If we are going to strike all non-PC or derogatory words from the language, do it for the whole language. This statement is correct, but they go hand in hand. Uneducated people are more likely to have prejudices and use slurs. But uneducated and insecure people are also the ones who feel prejudiced against and are offended by something like a joke. Educated and secure people in general should know the difference between and slur and a joke or remark. (And I DO take offense to the word 'missy'-so please inform me of your intent) You joke about stereotypes. Most stereotypes are very outdated. Most blondes really aren't dumb. Most women can drive. And some are true but funny. Doctors have bad handwriting. It's true to my knowledge and it's funny. I play flute and when American Pie came out I took more sh*t for it than you would believe. It didn't bother me, other than the fact it was annoying. I wasn't a the movie character and I didn't do that with my flute. But I could have got all up in arms about the portrayal of her and 'band nerds' everywhere. Band people are generally portrayed as geeks. That's how it is. Some of the coolest people I know and knew were in high school band. And we laugh at the stereotypes. I can judge what is intended to be offensive and what is not if I am the person delivering the message. If I say something in malice or contempt of another person, it is offensive. If it's a joke, it's a joke and I know the people I can joke with. And if someone can judge my joke without knowing me or my intent, then I can judge anything I want. And being of the white majority should have nothing to do with it. But as a white person, I can't get offended by that. Just because I'm in the white majority does not mean my life has been easier than the life of any person of any minority. All white people do not have it that easy. The whole idea that all white people are oppressing minorities is simply not true. In fact, I didn't get into the college of my choice due to an affirmative action type program at the school. Seems that graduating in the top 1% of my high school class wasn't good enough. Or extremely high SAT scores. Or band, choir, NHS, Principal's Advisory Board, French Honor Society, orchestra, English Honor Society, Color Guard, All-Region Band 4 years, 2 musicals, Student Council, teaching at the Museum of Natural Science for 4 years, all Honors classes every year...do I need to go on, because I could? And I'm sure I'll get a lot of hell for saying all of this but it's true. I knew minority students with lower SAT scores, lower class ranks (considering there were only 4 people ahead of me) and not as many extra-cirriculars or awards and they got in. Sure, maybe I didn't have what they were looking for, but what else did they want? To look good by diversifying there enrollment. Yes, I'm bitter. And it makes me understand why many minorities are bitter for getting treated poorly for years. Minorities complained and things got changed and are still changing. But when do I get to complain. I do believe in reverse discrimination of the majority. As a result, I'm on a GREAT scholarship at U of H. And that's the only reason I'm here. And it's plenty diverse here. And that's good. I'm glad. Diversity is good. Please understand that I am in favor of diversity and unity. But white people are not allowed to complain. We're not allowed to say we're being discriminated against. We're not allowed to say that a joke about white people is offensive. Why? I would love for someone to answer this. Contrary to what many of you may believe after reading this thread, I am not a racist. I am for equality for everyone. And everyone deserves it; this is America. My problem is with ignorant and stupid people. I have contempt for the mother on welfare (of any race, including my own, which to get technical is German-Czech-American) and keeps having babies to get more money and uses the money to buy crack. I'm mad at the people who work half as hard as I do but get preference for jobs or school because of the color of his or my skin. On the other hand, I would HATE to be hired to admitted to a school simply because I am a woman or I am of this race or that one. What a blow to the person that I actually am! And as far as my statement about "wanting more" it was an overgeneralization and misstatement. I should have rephrased it and put it in context. And it's not all minorities or just one in particular. It's small groups of any or all. What I see is a group of people, and for example I'll use african americans (not becuase I hate anyone, but I do have this problem with a group of them). They were slaves and oppressed and it was wrong and sad. But the US fixed that and they got the right to vote (which didn't come for women until later-if you want to talk oppression) and later desegregation. But that wasn't enough. So we use affrimative action to get more people jobs and in school. Things are getting better. Then come reparations. Where does this end? Do whites need to be oppressed and enslaved too? Would that be enough? If you remember, America was started by oppressed whites in Europe, so we've been there too (although with different circumstances and to a different extent). This is what I meant by my statement. Maybe it makes it better, maybe not. I think reparations are wrong. As I said ealier, I am for affirmative action, when it works properly. Sorry this was long, but I had a lot to clear up and lots of toes to avoid, which I know I still got some. I am still not trying to argue or be hostile. These are my sincere opinions and I sincerely welcome yours as well.
You are right about that and I've thought about it too. But if we really want to get rid of the word, shouldn't we do it in all it's forms? Or can we really get rid of words like this at all? And thanks for backing me up.
Originally posted by Princess Let me clear some things up for anyone who cares. I'm not going to argue about who is right and wrong, because there are no real answers. The word in itself if a bad word and I do not like it. I do not want to use the word "nig***." I think NO ONE should be able to use the word, in any sense, good or bad. I think it's unfair though for african-americans to be able to use it and not anyone else though. If we are going to strike all non-PC or derogatory words from the language, do it for the whole language. I think you'll find that groups of people can use normally derogatory terms against their own kind and it's not considered offensive but when people who don't share that particular trait use it, it's very insulting. Much like gays may call each other fags, hispanics may call each other spics, or whatever. No offense there to anyone, just using examples. So instead of wanting to use the N word just start calling all your white friends crackers and honkeys. Then you'll have your own nifty slur to use without being jealous of other races and their seemingly getting away with using slurs against each other. This statement is correct, but they go hand in hand. Uneducated people are more likely to have prejudices and use slurs. But uneducated and insecure people are also the ones who feel prejudiced against and are offended by something like a joke. Educated and secure people in general should know the difference between and slur and a joke or remark. (And I DO take offense to the word 'missy'-so please inform me of your intent) You take offense to the word missy? Insecure are we? I don't think it's a matter of education or security, rather a matter of sensitivity and awareness to a history of racism and injustices committed by whites against minorities which still goes on today. You joke about stereotypes. Most stereotypes are very outdated. Most blondes really aren't dumb. Most women can drive. And some are true but funny. Doctors have bad handwriting. It's true to my knowledge and it's funny. I play flute and when American Pie came out I took more sh*t for it than you would believe. It didn't bother me, other than the fact it was annoying. I wasn't a the movie character and I didn't do that with my flute. But I could have got all up in arms about the portrayal of her and 'band nerds' everywhere. Band people are generally portrayed as geeks. That's how it is. Some of the coolest people I know and knew were in high school band. And we laugh at the stereotypes. I think you're a little off here. Blondes don't have a history of being kidnapped from their homeland, enslaved, oppressed, and being denied basic human rights. No seperate water fountains for blondes or seperate schools for blondes. There is a large divide between blonde stereotypes that don't involve systematic discrimination in all segments of society and racial stereotypes that do involve such systematic discrimination. For example, how many blondes have historically been denied jobs simply on the basis that they were blonde? Now compare that to African-Americans and there is of course a very large difference in the two. I can judge what is intended to be offensive and what is not if I am the person delivering the message. If I say something in malice or contempt of another person, it is offensive. If it's a joke, it's a joke and I know the people I can joke with. And if someone can judge my joke without knowing me or my intent, then I can judge anything I want. And being of the white majority should have nothing to do with it. But as a white person, I can't get offended by that. Just because I'm in the white majority does not mean my life has been easier than the life of any person of any minority. All white people do not have it that easy. It sounds like you're playing a whoa is me I'm white card. Seriously poor you.. c'mon now. Statistically and realistically you have it much better off than the average African-American. If all white people do not have it that easy and they haven't been the victims of a few hundred years of oppression and racism, just imagine how African-Americans have it. There really is racism and it really does affect the quality of people's lives. It's not a myth made up to get sympathy from the man. The whole idea that all white people are oppressing minorities is simply not true. The idea is not that all white people oppress minorities, it's that white people hold the economic and political power in our country and have historically used that power to oppress and deny opportunities to minorities. In fact, I didn't get into the college of my choice due to an affirmative action type program at the school. Seems that graduating in the top 1% of my high school class wasn't good enough. Or extremely high SAT scores. Or band, choir, NHS, Principal's Advisory Board, French Honor Society, orchestra, English Honor Society, Color Guard, All-Region Band 4 years, 2 musicals, Student Council, teaching at the Museum of Natural Science for 4 years, all Honors classes every year...do I need to go on, because I could? And I'm sure I'll get a lot of hell for saying all of this but it's true. I knew minority students with lower SAT scores, lower class ranks (considering there were only 4 people ahead of me) and not as many extra-cirriculars or awards and they got in. Sure, maybe I didn't have what they were looking for, but what else did they want? To look good by diversifying there enrollment. Yes, I'm bitter. And it makes me understand why many minorities are bitter for getting treated poorly for years. Minorities complained and things got changed and are still changing. But when do I get to complain. I do believe in reverse discrimination of the majority. As a result, I'm on a GREAT scholarship at U of H. And that's the only reason I'm here. And it's plenty diverse here. And that's good. I'm glad. Diversity is good. Please understand that I am in favor of diversity and unity. But white people are not allowed to complain. We're not allowed to say we're being discriminated against. We're not allowed to say that a joke about white people is offensive. Why? I would love for someone to answer this. White people do complain and if I remember correctly some white students sued UT Law School successfully for discrimination in admissions and scholarships. Also, I believe affirmative action in Texas schools was overturned by the courts so if you applied to a Texas school I don't know how accurate your complaint really is. The year after affirmative action was stopped, enrollment by minorities was down drastically. So in reality, if you're for diversity you should be for affirmative action. You think it's unfair that you're denied a spot in a school but how unfair is it for minorities to compete on level with whites when whites don't statistically face the same challenges as minorities? That's racing a Honda Accord with a Ferrari, but that's fair? Contrary to what many of you may believe after reading this thread, I am not a racist. I am for equality for everyone. And everyone deserves it; this is America. My problem is with ignorant and stupid people. I have contempt for the mother on welfare (of any race, including my own, which to get technical is German-Czech-American) and keeps having babies to get more money and uses the money to buy crack. I'm mad at the people who work half as hard as I do but get preference for jobs or school because of the color of his or my skin. On the other hand, I would HATE to be hired to admitted to a school simply because I am a woman or I am of this race or that one. What a blow to the person that I actually am! And as far as my statement about "wanting more" it was an overgeneralization and misstatement. I should have rephrased it and put it in context. And it's not all minorities or just one in particular. It's small groups of any or all. What I see is a group of people, and for example I'll use african americans (not becuase I hate anyone, but I do have this problem with a group of them). They were slaves and oppressed and it was wrong and sad. But the US fixed that and they got the right to vote (which didn't come for women until later-if you want to talk oppression) and later desegregation. But that wasn't enough. So we use affrimative action to get more people jobs and in school. Things are getting better. Then come reparations. Where does this end? Do whites need to be oppressed and enslaved too? Would that be enough? If you remember, America was started by oppressed whites in Europe, so we've been there too (although with different circumstances and to a different extent). This is what I meant by my statement. Maybe it makes it better, maybe not. I think reparations are wrong. As I said ealier, I am for affirmative action, when it works properly. Maybe if whites were oppressed and enslaved you'd realize how great it is to be white in America and what an incredibly simplistic statement it is to say "the US fixed that". Things are getting better but that doesn't mean things are equal or fair. Sleepy... soo...... sleeeepy...
