[An Israeli's Point of View] Morality is not on our side

There are many Jewish and Christian authors who have expressed their deep concern over the 'morality' of Israeli bombardment of Lebanese civilian infrastructures, some more passionatly than others. Some have been liberals and some conservatives.

Paul Craig Roberts (a Republican representative from Texas) was one of them, although he does go even further in his condemnation, definitely further than I would go. Still, it's pretty surprising that a conservative Republican politician from the south would be this forthcoming/blunt in his condemnation. Here's his latest op-ed...

The Shame of Being An American

By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

Do you know that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing in southern Lebanon? Israel has ordered all the villagers to clear out. Israel then destroys their homes and murders the fleeing villagers. That way there is no one to come back and nothing to which to return, making it easier for Israel to grab the territory, just as Israel has been stealing Palestine from the Palestinians.

Do you know that one-third of the Lebanese civilians murdered by Israel’s attacks on civilian residential districts are children? That is the report from Jan Egeland, the emergency relief coordinator for the UN. He says it is impossible for help to reach the wounded and those buried in rubble, because Israeli air strikes have blown up all the bridges and roads. Considering how often (almost always) Israel misses Hizbollah targets and hits civilian ones, one might think that Israeli fire is being guided by US satellites and US military GPS. Don’t be surprised at US complicity. Why would the puppet be any less evil than the puppet master?

Of course, you don’t know these things, because the US print and TV media do not report them.

Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush has told the UN “NO.” Bush has told the European Community “NO.” Bush has told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister “NO.” Twice. Bush is very proud of his firmness. He is enjoying Israel’s rampage and wishes he could do the same thing in Iraq.

Does it make you a Proud American that “your” president gave Israel the green light to drop bombs on convoys of villagers fleeing from Israeli shelling, on residential neighborhoods in the capital of Beirut and throughout Lebanon, on hospitals, on power plants, on food production and storage, on ports, on civilian airports, on bridges, on roads, on every piece of infrastructure on which civilized life depends? Are you a Proud American? Or are you an Israeli puppet?

On July 20, “your” House of Representatives voted 410-8 in favor of Israel’s massive war crimes in Lebanon. Not content with making every American complicit in war crimes, “your” House of Representatives, according to the Associated Press, also “condemns enemies of the Jewish state.”

Who are the “enemies of the Jewish state”?

They are the Palestinians whose land has been stolen by the Jewish state, whose homes and olive groves have been destroyed by the Jewish state, whose children have been shot down in the streets by the Jewish state, whose women have been abused by the Jewish state. They are Palestinians who have been walled off into ghettos, who cannot reach their farm lands or medical care or schools, who cannot drive on roads through Palestine that have been constructed for Israelis only. They are Palestinians whose ancient towns have been invaded by militant Zionist “settlers” under the protection of the Israeli army who beat and persecute the Palestinians and drive them out of their towns. They are Palestinians who cannot allow their children outside their homes because they will be murdered by Israeli “settlers.”

The Palestinians who confront Israeli evil are called “terrorists.” When Bush forced free elections on Palestine, the people voted for Hamas. Hamas is the organization that has stood up to the Jewish state. This means, of course, that Hamas is evil, anti-semitic, un-American and terrorist. The US and Israel responded by cutting off all funds to the new government. Democracy is permitted only if it produces the results Bush and Israel want.

Israelis never practice terror. Only those who are in Israel’s way are terrorists.

Another enemy of the Jewish state is Hizbollah. Hizbollah is a militia of Shia Muslims created in 1982 when Israel first invaded Lebanon. During this invasion the great moral Jewish state arranged for the murder of refugees in refugee camps. The result of Israel’s atrocities was Hizbollah, which fought the Israeli army, defeated it, and drove it, with its tail between its legs, out of Lebanon. Today Hizbollah not only defends southern Lebanon but also provides social services such as orphanages and medical care.

To cut to the chase, the enemies of the Jewish state are any Muslim country not ruled by an American puppet friendly to Israel. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and the oil emirates have sided with Israel against their own kind, because they are dependent either on American money or on American protection from their own people. Sooner or later these totally corrupt governments that do not represent the people they rule will be overthrown. It is only a matter of time.

Indeed Bush and Israel may be hastening the process in their frantic effort to overthrow the governments of Syria and Iran. Both governments have more popular support than Bush has, but the White House Moron doesn’t know this. The Moron thinks Syria and Iran will be “cakewalks” like Iraq, where ten proud divisions of the US military are tied down by a few lightly armed insurgents.

If you are still a Proud American, consider that your pride is doing nothing good for Israel or for America.

On July 20 when “your” House of Representatives, following “your” US Senate, passed the resolution in support of Israel’s war crimes, the most powerful lobby in Washington, the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), quickly got out a press release proclaiming “The American people overwhelming support Israel’s war on terrorism and understand that we must stand by our closest ally in this time of crisis.”

The truth is that Israel created the crisis by invading a country with a pro-American government. The truth is that the American people do not support Israel’s war crimes, as the CNN quick poll results make clear and as was made clear by callers into C-Span.

Despite the Israeli spin on news provided by US “reporting,” a majority of Americans do not approve of Israeli atrocities against Lebanese civilians. Hizbollah is located in southern Lebanon. If Israel is targeting Hizbollah, why are Israeli bombs falling on northern Lebanon? Why are they falling on Beirut? Why are they falling on civilian airports? On schools and hospitals?

Now we arrive at the main point. When the US Senate and House of Representatives pass resolutions in support of Israeli war crimes and condemn those who resist Israeli aggression, the Senate and House confirm Osama bin Laden’s propaganda that America stands with Israel against the Arab and Muslim world.

Indeed, Israel, which has one of the world’s largest per capita incomes, is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. Many believe that much of this “aid” comes back to AIPAC, which uses it to elect “our” representatives in Congress.

This perception is no favor to Israel, whose population is declining, as the smart ones have seen the writing on the wall and have been leaving. Israel is surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslims who are being turned into enemies of Israel by Israel’s actions and inhumane policies.

The hope in the Muslim world has always been that the United States would intervene in behalf of compromise and make Israel realize that Israel cannot steal Palestine and turn every Palestinian into a refugee.

This has been the hope of the Arab world. This is the reason our puppets have not been overthrown. This hope is the reason America still had some prestige in the Arab world.

The House of Representatives resolution, bought and paid for by AIPAC money, is the final nail in the coffin of American prestige in the Middle East. It shows that America is, indeed, Israel’s puppet, just as Osama bin Laden says, and as a majority of Muslims believe.

With hope and diplomacy dead, henceforth America and Israel have only tooth and claw. The vaunted Israeli army could not defeat a rag tag militia in southern Lebanon. The vaunted US military cannot defeat a rag tag, lightly armed, insurgency drawn from a minority of the population in Iraq, insurgents, moreover, who are mainly engaged in civil war against the Shia majority.

What will the US and its puppet master do? Both are too full of hubris and paranoia to admit their terrible mistakes. Israel and the US will either destroy from the air the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, and Iran so that civilized life becomes impossible for Muslims, or the US and Israel will use nuclear weapons to intimidate Muslims into acquiescence to Israel’s desires.

Muslim genocide in one form or another is the professed goal of the neoconservatives who have total control over the Bush administration. Neocon godfather Norman Podhoretz has called for World War IV (in neocon thinking WW III was the cold war) to overthrow Islam in the Middle East, deracinate the Islamic religion and turn it into a formalized, secular ritual.

Rumsfeld’s neocon Pentagon has drafted new US war doctrine that permits pre-emptive nuclear attack on non-nuclear states.

Neocon David Horowitz says that by slaughtering Palestinian and Lebanese civilians, “Israel is doing the work of the rest of the civilized world,” thus equating war criminals with civilized men.

Neocon Larry Kudlow says that “Israel is doing the Lord’s work” by murdering Lebanese, a claim that should give pause to Israel’s Christian evangelical supporters. Where does the Lord Jesus say, “go forth and murder your neighbors so that you may steal their lands”?

The complicity of the American public in these heinous crimes will damn America for all time in history.

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He is coauthor of "The Tyranny of Good Intentions".

 

Morality is so first century!!!

 

WOW!! what a read! He has got balls! A republican no less?

Everone should know about the AIPAC.

http://www.washington-report.org/archives/Jan_Feb_2006/0601012.html

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020610/massing

http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/04/12/10/lang.htm

 

tiger, do you have a link to this article?

 

I think his article is a bit emotional and goes over the top to make a point, but I was surprised too because he's not only a conservative 'Reagan Republican', but he's also a southerner from Texas...I imagine his views are not shared by many in the South.

 

Yes, apologize for not including it earlier:

http://baltimorechronicle.com/2006/072406Roberts.shtml

 

Uh, yea...I know...

Really?...Cool. Where did you get this information Paul? You like to make pull it out of the arse statements huh Paul?...Do you think that and base that as fact and why do you think that when the Israelis have made it clear there intentions and how they would regard a Hezbollah free Palestine Paul? Do you think the Holocaust didn't exist either huh Paul...Maybe the truth is out there Paul and your pass statements are to be taken as noteworthy when you say something that is baseless, so can anyone say baseless things too...Huh Paul?...Hey Paul, Hezbollah would like to kill you...Is that cool Paul? Paul, you like Bushmasters? Would you like to pet my Bushmaster? Are you an alien Paul?

Hey everyone!,...Did you know Paul is an outer space alien from the planet T-jerkistan 15-59...Paul then says something baseless and without rationale of fact so that this STUPIDITY can be posted on BBS by someone stupid enough to think it means a hill of beans in such the internet transfer results in a code word hidden in the secret wording of the blatant STUPIDITY which is further transcribed to the network, so the outer space aliens can steal land from the Earth as they always have....

 

Actually, Israel drops pamphlets warning areas that are going to be bombed to try and spare civililan casualties. Israel has no interest in "grabbing" land, especially not in Lebanon. It never would have gone there in the 80's if Lebanon wasn't being used as a free haven for organizations trying to destroy it. As for the the territories, it's a different piece. You can argue that Israel had no right to occupy Gaza and the West Bank, but that has nothing to do with the war in Lebanon.

One third of most civillians are children. That's why war is awful. How many children did the US kill in bombing Germany, or Japan, or Vietnam or Iraq? Do you think the US deliberately wants to kill children in a country they are trying to rebuild? Tell me, Paul, if I made you Israel's Defense Minister for a day, how would you conduct her defense? Let's see let me compare you to Peretz.

Peretz is not exactly a hawk. Or a neo-con. He's a lifelong socialist, who has devoted himself to economic policies to help the poor. He's of Sefardi descent, and grew up poor and discriminated against for being a minority of Moraccan ancestry. Yes, that means his folks are arabic speakers. He also grew up in the town of Sderot, the most rocketed city in Israel, that has to live with concrete barricades all over town for people to duck into at a moments notice.

You seem to know better than he does, how to conduct a more "humane" war, why don't you come over and teach him?

Yes...the same bridges and roads used to resupply Hizbollah with more men, weapons and supplies to continue killing Israeli children. I won't stoop as low as to suggest the lives of Israeli children are worth more than Lebanese children, but at least one of us can admit that the lives of one are certainly not worth less.

So wait...are you saying that Israel is purposely targeting civillians and not targeting Hizbollah, and that this is because the US wants them to? I'm always a step behind in conspiracy theories. Um...Israel has their own sattelites, but I think you know as well as I do that there is no such thing as a bombing that doesn't kill civillians. So you characterize both the US and Israel as "evil"? Isn't that a bit dramatic? Or are you insinuating that this is part of a grand plot to kill Arabs in southern Lebanon because it benefits the US or Israel...how? All I know of value there is a few vineyards and alot of hash and opium cultivation (made by Hizbollah). I agree...it would be silly to use the military to destroy drug fields...except you advocated it in South America. As far as the media is concerned, there is plenty YOUR media isn't TELLING YOU. But I hardly think your interest in this mess is objective.

\Why would Bush object to a war against a state-sponsored terror organization that has repeatedly targeted his own people, including nearly 300 Marines in one suicide bombing? If anything ISRAEL wishes they could could conduct war the way the US freely does in Iraq. They don't enjoy the freedom the US military does to conduct war, and Israeli casulties are proportionally higher.

I'm glad "my" president allowed the Israelis to pursue parties responsible for abducting and killing Israeli soldiers (and civillians). I'm glad the Israeli army has the human intelligence capacity to find the people responsible and take them out. I'm glad they have the foresight to litter the areas about to be bombed to warn people there to seek safety. And when they do run away, that human intellgence capacity also finds that among these people fleeing, there are in act, Hizbollah operatives. I don't recall hearing of any northern Beirut neighborhoods being bombed. That's probably because the people there are Christians and Christians don't tend to join shi'ite terror organizations.

I'm an American citizen and an Israeli resident. Israeli puppet? What does that mean exactly? I anticipate a racist slip. I'm not beholden to the opinions of any goverment, and I can assure my awareness of what is going around me is more enlightened than yours.

Gee...so all but 8 members of Congress agreed that Israel's pursuit of hizbollah was justified? Impressive. If anything, it's alot easier to justify what Israel is doing in Lebanon than what we are doing in Iraq. If terrorists in Mexico began shelling Laredo, and abducting US Border Patrol Agents, AND the Mexican government did nothing about it, what would you do exactly?

You, apparently!

Actually, their land was stolen by Jordan and Egypt. Neither of them want it back, or the the responibility for the people in it, since they have proven themselves detrimental to the security of their states as well. I don't think it's in Israel's interest to keep it without annexing it outright and providing universal sufferage and economic relief, and it's not in thier interests to occupy it with conscripted soldiers to provide for the tax free homes for a small minority of nutballs. And my opinion is pretty much Israeli consensus.

Settlers were responsible for this. The state actually tried to bring them to justice, and volunteers from Israel helped them try to rebuild them. You do know that the Israeli army is considered the enemy of the Settler movement, right?

The IDF has rules of engagement that are stricter than the British or the US. After the Intifada, the army locked down alot of the area to restrict freedom of movement. That's what happens when there is rioting. Kind of like Watts.
I think it's unfair, and it makes life economically impossible for people, and that's why advocated withdrawl. Israel gains nothing from being there.

I guess you seemed to have missed out on the past decade or so of venom from the pro-settler cmap versus the rest of country. A prime minister got killed for advocating withdrawl. Israeli soldiers are mistreated by many of the settlers who decry them as not being "real jews." The occupation is unsustainable, the majority of the people know it, and the army are the ones responsible for implementing security from both the right-wing nutcases and Palestenian terrorists trying to sneak into the country to bomb nightclubs.

And after having forced the 6000 settlers out of Gaza, the people there haven't relished thier sovereignity and used their resources to rebuild their inrastructure. They are using it to build weapons and increase the efforts to kill Israelis in nearby communities ouside their borders.

No, terrorists are called terrorists. Palestinian intellectuals who advocate peace and seek a realistic resolution to the injustice of their situation are first of all, in good company, as there are many Israelis who feel the same way and operate many organizations to help them, and second, are often lynched by the mobs that run the PA for being "collaborators." Alot of them are communists, but I guess that makes it easy for you to ignore them.

Israel has a free press, and you will have no problems finding Israelis expressing opposition to any thing the Israeli goverment does, like sending their kids to guard settlers in the West Bank, or even if it makes sense, like this war on Lebanon. People in Israel aren't shot in the street for advocating peace, well unless they are Prime Ministers, I guess.

how did Bush "force" a free election, and how free do you really suppose it was?

No, advocating killing all Jews, destroying and annexing the state of Israel, killing and kidnapping western journalists and tourists, and opposing all opposition in their own country with violence makes them evil, anti-semetic, un-American and terrorist.

During the Oslo days, Israel armed the PA and trained them for policing the areas that came under their control. Many of those trainees and weapons were later used against them. It's not too unreasonable to imagine what sort of things Hamas planned to do, especially since they SAID they were going to bring about the destruction of Israel by violent means. Why would the US or Israel want to fund this enterprise?

Actually Hizbollah was a militia that fought the Marronite Christians (who were Israel's allies, many of which still live in Israel, France and the US). Hizbollah's first big acts were to kill the French, Italian and American peacekeepers that were there to do awful things like build hospitals. Hizbollah represented a certain opinion that a state that was half muslim and half christian was an abomination in the eyes of God.[/QUOTE]

Umm...if you mean Sharon's half-assed lack of an attempt to stop the Marronites from killing the Palestenians in Shatilla, ok. Israel didn't "arrange" anything. They tried to stay out of the way. It was the State of Israel that held Sharon responsible and fired him, and barred him from ever being Defense Minister, kind of like we did to MacArthur for advocating using nukes on the Chinese (which I think you would agree is a hell of alot worse). That's what democratic goverments do. By that logic you can hold Israel responsible for every death in the Lebanese civil war, and the US for every death in Iraq. You could argue that Sharon could have stopped them and didn't. But that doesn't make the State guilty of the act, nor does it have anything to do with the war in Lebanon now.

Israel ultimately left Lebanon because of public opinion. A democratic goverment can't support a war it doesn't want. At least that's how it works here.

Defends them from who? Israel? Sort of like Syria "defended" them and Iran "defends" them with weapons and advisors? Is rocketing northern Israel on a daily basis part of that defense?

The enemies of The State of Israel (it isn't called the Jewish state, 1/6th of it's citizens aren't Jews, you know) are states that benefit from keeping their people occupied with irrational hate so they don't have to answer to their own domestic problems. Many states have back channel relations and only rattle the sabre in public in order to keep the masses satisfied and appease their neighbors. Morocco and the UAE come to mind.

If they do get overthrown, it will be by Islamic fundamentalists. And Saudi Arabia has sided with Israel in no way. They are still technically in a state of war and have no diplomatic relations. Egypt and Jordan on the other hand, enjoy trade and tourism benefits by making peace.

umm..Iran IS run by a fundamentalist regime. The forces of opposition are nationalistic, suspicious of the US, and pro-democracy. Syria is a pretty weak country now, and if it has a revolution it will be beause of the inempt leadership of Assad, who is not 1/5 the leader his dad was.

I'm no fan of blind nationalism, but that sounds very "Lord HaHa" or "Tokyo Rose" to me.

Wait...I thought you said the only pro-American goverments were puppets of the US who were colaborators with the devil slavemaster Zionist regime of war criminal baby-killers? You are confusing me. Hizbollah is part of the goverment, that you claim has 80% support. Hizbollah is clearly anti-US and largely came into being to get rid of their presence in Lebanon. Abbas is pro-peace and pro-US, and willing to make reconcilliation with Israel, but he also has his hands tied by Hamas. Any effort to wrest control of them is civil war. The same goes for Lebanon's leadership, regarding Hizbollah.

I think you are really spinning this and your portait could use some shades of grey.

War crime?

Do you really, seriously, think that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians? There are Lebanese being treated in Israeli hospitals.
You are better of asking Army Inteligence why they pick their bomb sites. Not only does Israel operate a pretty expansive spy network in Lebanon, but alot of Lebanese are not fond of Hizbollah and hold them responsible for their ills, not the freaking Israeli goverment (and I'm sure they are willing to help finger the Hizbollah in their midst). I would presume some are accidents. But here's my guess:

airport RUNWAYS: because they are being used to transport weapons for use by Hizbollah, against Israel

Beirut: they bomb the homes of high ranking Hizbollah members

schools and hospitals: I would add civilian homes and anything else you want. Alot of these places are used to hide weapons. To be honest though, I didn't hear about any schools or hospitals. Do you by chance remember the "baby formula" factory that was bombed in '91 in Iraq. Are the US Airforce war criminals in your eyes?

And your misinformed and obtuse propaganda confirms either deep-seated hatred for Israel (if not Jews themselves), and the US war on terror, or your efforts to curry favor with people who hold these views.

If either of things are true, why is it that the average person makes less than $800 a month here? How come as an educated american with 12 years of work experience, I am struggling to make $1000 a month? I'm almost done with my master's degree and I make less than I did washing cars when I was a teenager, *18* years ago in Corpus Christi. OK, I get it, you don't take AIPAC money. So who's money do *you* take? AIPAC doesn't represent all the Jewish people in the US, and certainly doesn't represent the politics of all the Israeli people. I think all lobby groups are dirty, and buy politicians with their money. Besides...isn't the NRA bigger? Is the NRA part of the Grand Jewish Conspiracy to Oppress You?

Really, over a million immigrants from Eastern Europe, France and Argentina in the past 15 years and the population is declining? That's news to the Ministry of Absorbtion. Most people leave because they can't make any freaking money, and everyone leaves for a while after Army service for a year or so to escape war, paranoia and the claustrophobia of living in a state the size of New Jersey that is constantly in a state of war.

Umm..Israel has ALWAYS been surrounded by Muslims who have hated them. If anything, time has caused many both here and in the Muslim world to reconcile and have realistic hope of a future together.

Palestenians have been refugees since the British left and war broke out in the 40's. What has the Muslim world done for them? Israel is trying to leave the territories, but desires security in their own borders in return for doing so. Is that unreasonable? So far, leaving Gaza has been an unfortunate failure and only gives the far right-wing credence as communities in the south have come under fire in places that were untouched during the occupation of Gaza.

The hope of the Arab world is a reasonable quality of life, which they don't have, even though enough wealth exists to support them. America didn't become a supporter of Israel until '67. Before, Israel's arms dealings were mostly with Czechoslavakia and France. It was when the cold war expanded into that corner of the world that LBJ decided to help Israel as an answer to the Soviet Union "helping" Syria and Egypt (who were leaning heavily toward nationalistic/planned economies).

America had a big stake in the Six Day War. It was the closest thing to a true war by proxy of the US vs. the Soviet Union. But that's the genesis of ISrael/US tactical partership, and not before, and not because of a Zionist Conspiracy, and not because of freaking AIPAC and not because the US hates Arabs.

I think most things Congress does is paid for my some lobby. That's how the goverment works, unfortunately. But I also believe most politicians realize the high hypocricy of denouncing an action that follows nothing more than the US's own policy.

Rag tag militia? Hizbollah is stronger than most armies in the ME. It's capable of taking on the Lebanese army ALONE. They are trained and equpped by Iran and Syria. As I said before, the IDF left Lebanon because the war had lasted a decade and was tearing the country apart, and had lost public support. Attrition has how insurgency groups win.

Sure they can, but it would be at a cost in lives and money that is probably not worth it to the average American voter. SEE: Algeria, Vietnam, Afghanistan...

Ok, so now I'm certain you are trying to say that Jews control America.

And now I know you aren't to be taken seriously. This sounds like text from a North Korean press release.

Wait..so how do the neocons want to curry favor with oil-producing despots and commit genocide on them at the same time. Please get your conspiracy theories straight. I think the neocons are following the dollar, and ultimately make their decisons on makes it the most stable.

I think what he advocated was expanding using tactical nuclear weapons on states that attack with chemical and biological weapons...as a deterent to such an attck. But then again, I guess a jab at Rumsfeld is always an easy cheap shot for your readers.

Who is stealing whose land? And what planet are you on? All Israel wants if or Hizbollah to stop, and for the border to be secure. If the Lebanese had been willing or able to do this, there would be no war. The desired outcome from an Israeli point of view, is a secure border, and no more rocket attacks or abductions of their soldiers. Diplomacy wasn't going to get that done...so...

Are you an American politician or a radical Parisan Algerian? I can think of a million things to criticize about US policy, AIPAC, the Israeli goverment, the condition of the Palestenian people and their struggle for recognition and respect, and some of the odd and undemocratic things said and done by neocons. But all I am seeing here are kernals of half-baked conspiracy theories and old fashioned anti-semitism. If these are the views of the people who elected you, I certainly don't want to live in your district.

I also think a visit to Israel and to Lebanon is in order. You'll be confronted with a serious reality check.


seriously..this guy is a quack

I've read plenty of criticism of all of the above that were much more insightful and inspired. Ron Paul comes to mind. I'm no shill for the US or Israeli goverments, but this guy has not the credibility of Pat Buchanan.

 

deji just set the record for longest post. I hope it was good because it was too long for me to read

 

He needs to post more often.

 

You have my apology...

And Deji, excellent reply, you really should post more often...Oh yeah, and stay safe.

 

That was a GREAT post...wow!

What can the Hezbollah supporters say about that?...
Very impressive post. Thank you Deji, for showing why the Good Guys are the good guys...

 

Who are the Hezbollah supporters?

 

Those that support Islamic facists and their actions of terror.

 

Since I haven't really seen any here on this board, I was wondering why you were addressing them.

 

Not one of us can "see" who the other is, unless we actually meet them.

 

Well we can see who supports Bush or various Democrats and who doesn't.

So again I am curious why you would ask questions of Hezbollah supporters when I haven't really seen anything that would identify posters here as supporters of Hezbollah.