As an opponent to the war in Iraq, I think my reasons were different than most. I honstly did not believe that the American Public, this Administration or the next (from whatever party) had the ability to have a sustained presence in Iraq until a proper democratic system is in place. I felt that with the attention span of most of the US, we would simply lose those grounds of democracy and just place a US-friendly dictator in place out of frustration. But now that we are there, I want us to stay and do things right. We killed thousands of Iraqi's to allegedly free them from tyranny and to free us from some of the shackles of the international oil supply. If we are patient and can take the time to truly help the country realize its right to be free, we can also benefit ourselves. As much as I despised some of the 'alleged' rationale for the war, which I felt was misleading and aimed at fooling the public; the ultimate economic and social benefit of a reorganization of sorts in Iraq could be a net-positive. This country, being the most secular in the middle east over the last few decades, and being made up of different ethnic/religious groups would be a perfect location for us to create a government that gave equal rights to all and established a government based on inalienable rights, not religious and military might. So I ask for patience. If we leave Iraq now as many state, mostly to discredit the President, then we took the lives of thousands for nothing. Let the lives of the deceased mean something. Let the deceased know that their death was instrumental in creating something that could change an entire region if not continent.
A strong amen to that. To leave now would be stupid and a great disservice....both to the Iraqi people who deserve better and our troops who have fallen for this cause.
I am not suggesting we leave now, per se. We made a really big mess over there and someone needs to clean it up. I love the idea of setting up a secular democracy with civil liberties for all etc etc. But right now what I think is most important is turning the damn water on. I don't think we should be there because I think it is impossible for the U.S. to accomplish what you and I want accomplished. The people there hate us. Not because Saddaam is gone, they hated him too. Not because his kids are dead. They hated them. They hate us because we don't respect them. We shoot first. We invaded their country and are now occupying it. The Baathists haven't killed any Iraqis lately. All the dead Iraqis now have U.S. bullets in them. Every time we try to bully them into submission, we are making the Baathist past more popular. What needs to be done is an international peacekeeping and nationbuilding force. It needs to be the UN. There needs to be public trials of Baathists. Can you imagine all the people who could have been swayed had the sons been tried before the Iraqi people for their war crimes? Then if you wanna kill them, fine. But make it legal. Show the Iraqi people that we respect them and the rule of law. Show them that they can trust us (or whoever the occupying force is). All we are showing them now is that we respect brute force. We are saying, damnit you better start appreciating us or we'll kill you to. That is no way to win the hearts and minds. No way to win the peace.
You are addressing a very interesting poin doc. It´s very hard to creaty a democracy using military means. This can easily make one believe that creating democracy for the Iraqi people was not a primary goal going into Iraq. But know the situation is what it is down there. So what do you do? Well.. I too believe the UN would be more successful in getting some sort of democratic process started.
This is off-topic, and I apologize, but I don't like your moniker, Doc Popeye. I'm sure it's meant to be amusing and satirical, but the real Popeye is very ill right now and it really bugs me. I don't know if others feel that way, but there it is. Sorry, and feel free to slam "Blade Runner" or replicants in general. It's just something that's been bugging me since you started using it. Has nothing to do with your posts, btw, and you're a welcome addition to the BBS.
This country, being the most secular in the middle east over the last few decades, and being made up of different ethnic/religious groups would be a perfect location for us to create a government that gave equal rights to all and established a government based on inalienable rights, not religious and military might I think that virtually all of us would like that. It is fine to have utopian ideals. As you say the neocons lied to get us to go to war or at the very least based their war and now their post war hopes (remember their claim that the Iraqs all greeting us with flowers as welcome liberators) on doctored intelligence. What makes you think that they will now be able to force a nonsecular democracy on these people? Unfortunately I think that history has shown that you can't stop people who want to have fundamental religion to give this up. Iraq was the least secular because Sadam, a brutal dictator, required it. Now we can try to replace him as an oppresor of the fundamentalist reeligious Shiites and Sunnis, but even this will probably not work. Another example of trying to suppress fundamentalist religion and also ethnic hatred by force is from Yugoslavia and the Eastern bloc where the communists tried to suppress religion, but after they fell you find that those people are much more religious and less secular than most western countries. Attempts to suppress religion usually just make the adherents more fanatical.
Deckard, My name was not meant at all to be insulting. I chose it out of respect for the insiders and because I no longer liked my old name. But to tell the truth, I'm not all that crazy about it either. Just didn't like the name I had. I loved my original name, but that email address died and I had to choose another one quick. The last thing I want to do is insult Popeye. Even if he wasn't sick I would not want to disrespect him. So, For what it's worth, this is Doc Popeye signing off. See you soon under a soon to be decided Nom de Clutch. Just hope Sway doesn't leak it until I am ready.
So...what are you saying? Stay or go? I don't see what you suggest. I thought F.D. Khan's post was well thought-out with regards to what to do in the future. Your post does not really suggest a path to follow. It just says what CANNOT be done and what SHOULD NOT be done etc. The reality is that the troops are in there. What does more damage now, just pull out or stay there? I would be interested in hearing your take on this. Thanks.
Has it occurred to you that maybe a lot of Iraqis hate us AND want us there? As D.P. said, they hate us because we don't respect them -- but they also know their only hope at this point is for our government/troops to get their heads out of their collective backsides and start doing the right thing. But don't take my word for it. Read what someone in Baghdad has to say here: Or maybe here:
Got it! That's a really cool thing to do. Who were you before? Thanks a bunch from me and whoever else might have cared and let us know your new moniker!
Quick Question: What is you source of information for this opinion? I mean, it seems 50/50 to me . .. as far as reporting. Some news reports says they ain't happy. . . .some say they are. What makes the ones you base you opinion on . . MORE CREDIBLE. Personally, I think they are probably like mosty folx YEA thanks for cleaning up the house. . . NOW YOU CAN LEAVE America ain't the G*DD*MN maid. I say if you do something DO IT TO COMPLETION. The Maintenance phase shall be long. Rocket River
