My picks for the best ever at each position, based on what I have seen. Offense Quarterback: Joe Montana. It isn't just all the numbers. It isn't just the name. It isn't just the reputation. If I had to summarize why Montana is the all time best, as considered by most, it can be reduced to this one simple statistic; As makes sense, given the increased level of competition, every other quarterback in NFL history with I think at least a 10 game sample to draw from sees their QB rating go down each level in the playoffs; ie in the regular playoffs it's lower than in the regular season, in the Super Bowl it's even lower...makes sense, right? Every single QB...except one. Joe Montana's goes up each level, and is at it's highest in the Super Bowl where, despite playing in 4, he never even threw 1 interception. Running Back: I never saw Jim Brown, so this one is easy, Barry Sanders. Emmit was overrated and ran behind possibly the best line I have ever seen for much of his career, Walter was great but not as good as Barry. Best moves...the guy who previously had the best moves, Sayers, admitted that Barry Sanders regularly did things Sayers never even dreamed of. Possibly the player who was most fun to watch ever. Had he played a lot longer Bo might have been here. Fullback: This one is tough...and it really depends on what kind of offense you run; if you run a West Coast offense and want a guy who blocks, catches, and for goal line runs, it's hard to get better than Tom Rathman...if you want a guy who grinds out 20 tough runs a game Riggins is probably your guy, even though he sometimes played halfback. Moose Johnson was pretty great all around for a wjhile, and Larry Centers was probably the most productive, although in an unconventional way. But if I had to pick any fullback I have seen play, I have to go with Riggins. Left Tackle: Anthony Munoz. Simply the best. The ultimate athletic big man, he just shut guys down, period. Left Guard: Larry Allen. The ultimate dancing bear, he's gotta be good to make my list being that he played for the Dark Side. Center: Dwight Stevenson. Was once considered the best OL in the game, which is saying something for a center in the modern age. Better than Webster, IMO. Right Guard: Bruce Mathews. I know he played all over the place, but enough here to qualify, and he might possibly be the most versatile great OL of all time. I know Hannah is omitted, but these two impressed me more. RIght Tackle: Erik Williams. For a short period he was as dominant as any OL I have ever seen. Injuries curtailed his excelleence, but he was something. Tight End: Another position which depends on the offense, but you gotta go with Winslow. Clips I have seen of Mackey blow me away, but in that this is based on what I have seen, Winslow was like another great WR...who could, it was rumoured, block. Wide Reciever: Jerry Rice. One of the two easiest on this list to name, and probably the most dominant football player ever. Did to the record books what only Wayne Gretzky did at the same level in team sports history. Incredible, and still going strong. Wide Reciever: This is like naming the second best British playwrite...it's a huge dropoff, and there are a few bunched together. Largent, Carter, and Monk have the numbers, Joyner, Alwaorth, and Warfield had the ability, and Moss and particularly Owens have almost unimaginably freakish physical tools...but if I had to say, all around, the second best wr I have seen, I'd have to go with Rice's current teammate,Tim Brown. Owens and possibly Harrison will likely pass him pretty soon, though. Defense: Defensive End: Bruce Smith. Dominant, the complete package, the prototype...whatever term you want to use, it applies. Defensive Tackle: Joe Green. Nasty...even mean, almost. I saw him towards the end of his career, but he was recent enough that I saw tons of replayed games, and he was awesome. Defensive Tackle: I missed Olsen, and the other guys were all great at times; before the injury Bryant Young was probably the second best, but not for long enough...Sapp is great at times, and there have been other flashes, but John Randall was great for a long time, and he gets my vote here. Defensive End: Reggie White. Everything Bruce Smith is, but bigger. Awesome physical package. Weakside Linebacker: Lawrence Taylor. This is the other guy I mentioned earlier, with RIce, as gimmies. Redefined the position, and changed the game. Was almost as good as he thought he was, which is saying something. Inside Linebacker: Obviously if I had seen Butkus he'd be here, but in that I didn't I have to go with Singletary, the Butkus of his day. Among the best combos of toughness and smarts ever. Strongside Linbacker: The lunch pail guy, the guys who often don't get the glory. There are several possibles, guys like Brooks, Joyner, and others, but my pick is the guy who did let LT get all the headlines, Carl Banks. Great underrated player. Cornerback: Deion Sanders. Best cover man ever, period. And that;s the name of the game at corner. Cornerback: Darrell Green. Incredibly consistent for a long time. Not as special as Prime Time, but a safer bet. Safety: Ronnie Lott. Pro-Bowled almost his entire career, first at corner, then at safety. Hardest hitting defensive back of all time, and one of the smartest defenders ever. Safety: Rod Woodson. The physical package. Fast, tough, big, strong, quick, agile...like Lott he was originally a great corner. Special Teams Kicker: Morten Andersen. Consistent as a swiss clock. His only competition was the other Anderson with an 'o', Gary. Punter: Ray Guy or Reggie Roby...probably Guy. Darren Bennett has the ability to take this spot. Return Specialist: Billie 'White Shoes' Johnson or Neion Deion. Take your pick Mel Gray is up there too. What do you think, and what are yours?
Yeah, good picks. Okay, have to ask a question, MB. How much about MacBeth do you know? It could certianly come in handy to me right about now.
Well...I have played him. I know the play pretty much by heart...and I have taught it. Is that any help?
Well we just started the play yesterday afternoon, so probably in a little while I might solicit your help. Maybe I'll give you an e-mail or something. Sorry for derailing your thread.
Sure, let me know if I can help...and make up for the de-rail by arguing that someone on my list doesn't belong, or something like that...
Well since I'm not that old... some of these will be new school. QB - John Elway, Joe Montana - Tough one here, Joe was a great one, but he was also in the master system, Elway was the king of comebacks but couldn't win the big one without TD. HB - Barry Sanders, Bo Jackson - (Emmitt Smith is the most overrated player ever.) FB - Lorenzo Neal (Blocking), Larry Centers (Receiving) WR - Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Cris Carter TE - Shannon Sharpe, Brent Jones Offensive Line - Anthony Munoz, Bruce Matthews, Steve Wisneiski, Dermotti Dawson, Tony Boselli, Lincoln Kennedy DE - Bruce Smith, Reggie White DT - Warren Sapp, John Randall LB - Lawrence Taylor, Brian Urlacher (he is the perfect heir to Butkus and Singletary), Hardy Nickerson and Greg Lloyd in their primes were monsters. CB - Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson, Darrell Green, Lester Hayes (maybe I didn't see him play, but 14 picks in 1980 speaks for itself) Safety - Steve Atwater was a hitting machine, Ronnie Lott and Rod Woodson proved this position can be played effectively even without great speed. Kicker - Morten Anderson Punter - Todd Sauerbrun... but maybe someday Shane Lechler. He has incredible power, he can boom kicks into the end zone from way back in his own territory, if the Raiders' kick coverage wasn't so god-awful, he'd probably be a pro bowler every year. (and when he did make the pro bowl in 2001 he had 2 70+ yard punts in hawaii) Kick Returner - Glyn Milburn was a good one, also Mel Gray. Punt Returner - Deion Sanders of course, but watch out for Phillip Buchanon, he looks like Deion Jr, something special happens almost everytime this kid is in the game. (3 TD's in his career already and he's only played 8 NFL games folks)
Nice list...a few comments. 1) Montana was actually better than Elway at comebacks too...yeah Elway had a few more overall ( Montana is 2nd) but Montana wasn't behind nearly as much. He came back a much higher percentage of the time than Elway, in terms of opportunities, and is only a little back despite playing on teams which didn't fall behind nearly as often as the Broncos. Elway, on the other hand, is in my mind the perfect QB, from a physical standpoint. If I was designing a qb, he'd be the guy. Great, but as you said he couldn't do it on his own, with much better casts than Montana had in '81. 2) Agree absolutely about E. Smith...my exact phrase about him often. 3) Urlacher could be an awesome one, I agree...but I thought the same about Marvin Jones, and injuries curtailed that. We'll have to see. 4) More Lott than Woodson...Woodson slowed down some later on, but originally he was blazing fast.
Not early on...who did he have in '81? Nothing like the 3 Amigos, that's who..A hurdler experimenting as a wr, Dwight Clark, who was good, a decent TE, and a bunch of no names. In '84 they had a very balanced team, in terms of offense and defense, but the offense was almost all due to Montana. They had a couple of pretty good rbs ( Craig would be great later, but he wasn't starting then, and played fb a lot..and Tyler was pretty good but prone to fumbles)...still weak recievers in terms of talent, and another no name OL. After they got Rice, Craig took over, they got Taylor ( after quite a string of failures) to complement Rice, drafted Barton, Rathman and others, got Jones etc. they had possibly the best offensive team ever, but early on it was pretty much Montana winning games by himself, along with a commitment to run the ball.
QB: Steve Young Receivers: Rice and Owens Corner: Deion Return man: Deion Safeties: Merton Hanks and Tim McDonald TE: Brent Jones
QB: Troy Aikman Receivers: Irvin and Drew Pearson Corner: Deion Return man: Deion Safeties: Darren Woodson and Roy Williams TE: Jay Novacek
O qb: montana rb: barry sanders wr: rice wr: randy moss's first 3 years, otherwise brown or carter OL: larry allen bruce matthews erik williams te: shannon sharpe (not old enough to see jones much) D DL: reggie bruce LB: ray lewis (didn't see LT otherwise he obviously goes here) CB: neon (even though i hated the cowboys, he was damn good, and at least at one point he was on a team i liked, SF) Safety: i'm gonna put Ronnie Lott (even though i didn't put jones) b/c he is just so badass on tecmo super bowl ST kick returner: mel gray for awhile there punt returner: obviously deion (i don't know how he did it or if the cowboys just knew how to set up returns, but it seemed like he could break a huge return at any given time, and i hated it b/c it always seemed to give the cowboys a boost at just the right time)
I think that Barry Sanders is the most overrated RB. Yes, he was the most entertaining to watch but he had so many runs for zero or negative yards. This put his offense at a terrible disadvantage because they would face so many second or third down and long situations. I also think that Emmitt Smith in his prime was better than Barry Sanders. By his prime, I mean before 1995. He has just played for so long after his prime that people don't remember the old Emmitt. Sure he had a great offensive line but he was still great.
For whoever said it, Ronnie Lott did have excellent speed. He played corner during his first few years in the league. And I don't think you can count Riggins as a fullback, his glory years were out of the one-back set in a double te offense Here's my list, not entirely based on what I have seen, I know, I'm breaking the rules on this one, but I don't want to get into a long metaphysick about perception vs. memory. Of these guys, the ones I didn't see live or live on tv or replayed enough on tv were brown, little, alworth, hutson, Jones, Page, butkus, nitschke, adderly, houston, wodd, thorpe, lane, stenerud QB: Montana (easy) RB: Brown (easy) FB: Do we really even need a fullback on this team? Fine, I'll take Jim Taylor from the Packers or Marion Motley from the Browns C: Dwight Stephenson (tough call over Bruce Matthews but he got more press at C) G: John Hannah (many think he's the greatest OL ever) G: Larry Little (a weapon) T: Art Shell (a weapon) T: Anthony Munoz (best that I've seen) TE: Kellen Winslow (I don't need a blocking TE with this lineup) WR: Jerry Rice (easy) WR: Very difficult, Lance Alworth, Cris Carter, Don Hutson, all deserve consideration, pick any one, Randy Moss could surpass them all though DE: Deacon Jones (most dominant DE ever?) DE: Bruce Smith/Reggie White (tie) (both great in the same time in the same way, too close to call) DT: Mean Joe Greene (best DT ever) DT: Alan Page (close over buck buchanan) MLB: Nitschke/Singletary (going off reputation for Nitscke) OLB: Lawrence Taylor (got to include him even though he was 3-4) OLB: Butkus (he lined up all over though, was a freelancer) CB: Herb Adderley (superstar for the cowboys & pack w/world class speed) CB: Rod Woodson (sorry deion, got to be able to play run support) SS: Ronnie Lott (brings the load) FS: Ken Houston or Willie Wood (S is a sparsely populated spot, barely beat out Matt Stevens) Nickel back: Jim Thorpe (can't leave him off) Dime back: (as if we need one) Night Train Lane (star of the 50's) K: Jan Stenerud P: who cares, Ray Guy I guess Return Man: Deion, best home run threat ever.
QB - Montana RB - Earl Campbell & Sanders WR - Rice & Cris Carter OT - Munoz & John Hannah G - Mike Munchak & Larry Allen C - Bruce Matthews TE - Mark Bavaro, best combo of pass catching & blocking I've ever seen DE - Nobody under the age of 30 should pick anyone but Bruce Smith & Reggie White, those old enough should sub Deacon Jones for Smith DT - John Randall, Warren Sapp (if Jerome Brown hadn't died so young, he could've been one of the best ever) LB - Ray Lewis, Singletary, LT CB - Deion, Darrell Green S - Lott & Woodson
No love for The Tyler Rose! Greatest running back these eyes have ever seen. Others: QB - Elway RB - Earl!!! FB - Rathman LT - Munoz LG - Munchak C - Matthews RG - Matthews RT - no idea, guess I'll go with that drug addict Erik Williams TE - Noveckek (there were better blockers, better pass catchers, but he did both very well) WR - Jerry Rice (fact, not opinion) WR - Lynn Swann DE - Bruce DE - Reggie DT - Joe Greene DT - The Fridge (for 1 year) OLB - LT MLB - Robert Brazile OLB - Derreck Thomas, RIP CB - Deion (I hated him, but he was a blanket in his prime) CB - Darrell Green (he retired too early) Safety - Ronnie Lott (most imtimidating safety EVER) MacB, Woodson was my third pick at CB. I'm not sure about putting him on the list as a Safety. Then again, I can't think of anyone after Lott. Who played Safety for those Steeler teams of the 70's?
My friends and I were arguing about Barry Sanders last night. I used to be in the "Barry, no contest" crowd, but when you look at it objectively, I don't know. To claim that either one is overrated is really ridiculous. Yes, Emmitt played on great teams, but its not like he's a nobody. He was the best running back when he was in high school, the best when he was in college, and now he has the all-time rushing record. Last night, John Madden talked about the Monday Night game Emmitt ran with a dislocated shoulder. He was as tough as nails, and could always be counted on in third and short situations. He was a Fantasy Football dream in his prime racking up yards and touchdowns, and second to Jerry Rice career touchdowns. To say Emmitt is overrated because of the teams he played on is like saying Jerry Rice is overrated because of the teams he played on. Jerry Rice played with two of the most accurate passers in NFL history and no one questions his records. Its a ridiculous statement. The same goes for Barry Sanders. Because his coaches never gave him the ball in the red zone doesn't take away from his spectacular efforts. If he didn't retire, he would be the all-time rushing leader and it probably wouldn't even be close. One stat to look at when talking about Barry, 5.0 yards per carry for his CAREER. The only other running back with 5 or above for a career in the top ten rushers of all-time, Jim Brown. The guy was his whole team, never played behind a great line, never ever played with an above average quarterback, and he still put up the numbers year after year.
QB: Montana HB: Walter Payton FB: John Riggins WR: Jerry Rice, Randy Moss TE: Kellen Winslow T: Anthony Munoz T: Tony Boselli G: Larry Allen G: John Hannah C: Mike Webster DT: Randy White DT: Warren Sapp DE: Reggie White DE: Bruce Smith OLB: LT MLB: Singletary (I never saw Butkus) OLB: Derrick Brooks CB: Deion Sanders CB: Rod Woodson S: Ronnie Lott (could have been at CB) S: Darren Woodson (this is my homer pick, but I love the way he hits and plays in the slot) P: Ray Guy K: Gary Anderson KR: Billy White Shoes Johnson PR: Deion
