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Alabama's Top Judge Defiant on Commandments' Display

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Mr. Mooch, Aug 21, 2003.

  1. Mr. Mooch

    Mr. Mooch Contributing Member

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    Alabama's Top Judge Defiant on Commandments' Display

    By JEFFREY GETTLEMAN

    MONTGOMERY, Ala., Aug. 20 — They came streaming in from all directions, wearing their crosses and Confederate T-shirts, carrying dog-eared Bibles and bottles of water and enough Power Bars to outlast a siege.

    One man even walked from Texas, 20 miles a day, in a frock.

    He came like the rest of them, to save the rock.

    As the midnight deadline approached for Alabama's Chief Justice Roy Moore to remove the 5,280-pound monument of the Ten Commandments he secretly installed one night in the lobby of the State Supreme Court — a monument now known as Roy's Rock — the judge was not budging. The rock was not rolling. And hundreds of protesters vowed to form a human chain on their knees to protect it. Several were arrested this evening and dragged to their feet after they refused to leave the courthouse.

    "I came today to step in front of a forklift," said John Thomas Cripps, of Wiggins, Miss., one of the protesters.

    Mr. Cripps looked disappointed to find there were no forklifts. Federal officials have decided that fines, not force, are the best way to deal with the Scripture-inscribed slab.

    This afternoon, Justice Moore lost a last-ditch appeal to the United States Supreme Court, hurtling him head-on into a conflict with a federal judge who has threatened to make him pay $5,000 for every day that the Ten Commandments remain in public view.

    Despite the high court's quick rejection and the prospect of being held in contempt of court for violating the separation of church and state, Justice Moore said today, "If they want to get the commandments, they're going to have to get me first."

    Supporters are now calling him "the Moses of Alabama." :rolleyes:

    Detractors say the whole thing smells like Alabama's obstinacy of yesteryear, of the lost battles for states' rights in the 1960's.

    "He's been even more flamboyant and stubborn than George Wallace when he made his stand in the schoolhouse door," said Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

    The judge's defiance invigorated his supporters, who descended on Montgomery today, chanting, kneeling, praying and crying on the steps of the state's highest court, shouting out the Almighty's name and at times lying on their bellies to block passers-by.

    "This is not about a monument," bellowed the Rev. Pat Mahoney, director of the Christian Defense Coalition. "This is about resisting tyranny."

    "Amen," the crowd boomed.

    Gene Chapman, the man who came the 700 miles from Austin, Tex., on the barefoot express, said, "This is a culture war."

    Then Mr. Chapman added, in a thin voice: "I'd go to jail. Happily."

    On top of the long walk, he has been on a 10-day hunger strike.

    Later this evening, police took away more than 15 people, some of them elderly, after they refused to leave the monument's side when the building closed. Supporters said they would return the next day, in greater numbers.

    Judge Myron H. Thompson of Federal District Court, who has presided over this case brought by several civil liberties groups, has tried to take the path of least resistance. It was nine months ago, on Nov. 18, that Judge Thompson issued his own commandment: Thou shalt remove thy monument.

    Judge Thompson ruled that placing a stone block of the Ten Commandments in the court's lobby was "nothing less than an obtrusive year-round religious display."

    "The only way to miss the religious or nonsecular appearance of the monument would be to walk through the Alabama State Judicial Building with one's eyes closed," he wrote.

    His ruling had a tone of outrage to it. But Judge Thompson was patient. He granted Justice Moore until now to comply with the removal order. After several failed appeals, that ruling stands.

    Judge Thompson is expected to call a hearing, possibly as early as Thursday, to decide the next course of action. Justice Moore's opponents say that while the federal court may have the authority to levy fines, it could be difficult collecting them.

    "That's a tough one," said Mr. Lynn. "But what's important here is that we send the message that you can't have every judge obeying only the rulings they like."

    Legal experts say Justice Moore's views are on the fringe.

    Martin Redish, a Northwestern University law professor, said: "This is not a close case. This is a situation where both on its face and from the context, it's quite clear that the Ten Commandments are being used as a clear message of governmental support for a religious institution."

    Alabama's attorney general, Bill Pryor, a conservative legal figure who has been nominated for a circuit court judgeship, has tried to walk a fine line.

    He issued a statement saying: "Although I believe the Ten Commandments are the cornerstone of our legal heritage and that they can be displayed constitutionally as they are in the U.S. Supreme Court building, I will not violate nor assist any person in the violation of this injunction. I will exercise any authority provided to me, under Alabama law, to bring the state into compliance with the injunction of the federal court."

    Moses and the Ten Commandments appear on a frieze at the United States Supreme Court as part of a display of historical law figures, like Hammurabi and Confucius. The courts have consistently ruled that it is acceptable to show the Ten Commandments if they are part of a larger historical display. Justice Moore, however, refused to place any other exhibits alongside his Ten Commandments.

    Theoretically, Bob Riley, the Republican governor of Alabama, could order public safety officers to remove the monument if the state starts incurring fines. Such a debt would be especially awkward for Mr. Riley, who has been pushing a tax increase that he says is necessary to save Alabama from bankruptcy.

    So far, though, the governor has supported Justice Moore, saying, "I have a deep and abiding belief that there is nothing wrong or unconstitutional about the public display of the Ten Commandments and disagree with the court's mandate to remove them."

    Associate Justice Tom Woodall of the Alabama Supreme Court said a majority of judges could vote to remove Justice Moore's administrative power over the building and have the monument wheeled away.

    "That has been discussed," Justice Woodall said. "A lot."

    But opposing Justice Moore will take courage. He is one of the most popular politicians in the state, rising from obscurity 10 years ago after he hung a homemade rosewood plaque of the Ten Commandments in his county courtroom. The well-publicized battles he waged to keep the plaque up boosted his name recognition and acclaim. He believes that America's laws get their authority from the Bible, and has even compared himself to Moses and Daniel.

    Today he said: "This is not about a monument. It's not about religion, or politics. It's about the acknowledgment of God."


    Okay, well I have a feeling this will be a loooong debate in this thread.

    Uhh, where to begin...

    Roy Moore is nuts. I'll put it simply. He claims that it's unconstitutional for the 10 Commandments to be forced out of the Capitol building in Montgomery.

    Well, my fantastic congressman, Artur Davis (whom I've met various times), had a great soundbyte today. He mainly said that Roy Moore has mandated many court orders throughout his reign, and that Moore should do the same by complying with the federal court order.

    To most in this state, it's not about religion, politics, or God. This is about following orders, and Moore has not. This isn't a new case either. It's been like this for a year, maybe more, ever since the day the stone was put in the building.

    On the news, they show an Orthodox rabbi supporting him; same with a Texas pastor (who was arrested today). Even Alan Keyes.

    I don't know how many of you are familiar with this case, but I hear about it nonstop and really don't care, as it doesn't affect me. The reason no one hears about anything from the far right wing governor is because he has to focus on his proposed and flawed tax plan.

    This state isn't as backwards as it may seem, but an issue like this certainly doesn't help the image. And don't get me started on the state constitution...
     
  2. Friendly Fan

    Friendly Fan PinetreeFM60 Exposed

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    the old fart is trying to foist his personal religious beliefs on everyone by taking the approach that everyone gives the ten commandments the same dignity

    STFU, judge! become a preacher if you want to set religious doctrine for your flock. Here's an idea, your honor: Get a giant monument of THE CONSTITUTION, because THAT is the relevant document here.
     
  3. Timing

    Timing Member

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    I've been reading about this crack pot judge for a long time. If I recall correctly he also partially used homosexuality as grounds for taking away custody of a woman's kid. The guy is a nutball.
     
  4. mrpaige

    mrpaige Member

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    Well, Dear Governor, get yourself appointed to the Federal Bench, and maybe your opinion on what is or isn't Constitutional would carry some weight.

    Until then, perhaps you should look into enforcing the law rather than interpreting it, dear Governor. It's a whole separation of powers thing somebody should've told you about at some point in your civics lessons.

    I don't know what to think about the situation. On the one hand, the law is the law. The Supreme Court has chosen to not weigh in on the matter, so the Federal Judge's word is the law that pertains to the case.

    But, on the other hand, I can't motivate myself to really care too much. It sounds like one of the many things we will often get ourselves worked up about just so we don't have to worry about things that are more important.
     
  5. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    If Alabama is like most other states, the judge took an oath of office, and another when he was sworn into the bar, to protect and defend and uphold the constitution of the US and/or the laws of the US. He's flagrantly in violation of both among other things.
     
    #5 SamFisher, Aug 21, 2003
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2003
  6. underoverup

    underoverup Member

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    I don't think Alabama is like most other states, at least not in this hemisphere. Can you imagine if a Judge in bama decided he wanted to hang some part of the Koran on the wall of his court. Yikes. :eek:
     
  7. Maynard

    Maynard Member

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    these people are 100% nuts
     
  8. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    here's why i'm torn on this issue:

    1. if i, as a Christian, walked into a court...let's say in a nation i had just immigrated to...and i saw hanging over the courthouse some code of a Hindu origin...i would feel uncomfortable. that's a problem.

    2. on the other hand...the Alabama Constitution cites the authority of God in establishing the judiciary of that state...we have "In God We Trust" on our currency...the Supreme Court enters the room and an officer of the Court says, "God save the Court." we can't have it both ways...it's pure hypocrisy for the Supreme Court with all its trappings and all of its tips of the cap to God saying that a state court in Alabama can't have the same.

    3. i'm also torn because this is ultimately the kind of issue that i'm not sure presents a federal question...the decorum of a state court brought before the US Supreme Court? i really don't think that's what the founders had in mind.
     
  9. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    i believe the Ten Commandments are a part of the Muslim faith as well...am I wrong on that??
     
  10. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Regardless of where you fall on the substative issue, there's no excuse for not complying with the court order. He can appeal to the Supreme Court all he wants, but his refusal to take it down while he does that is inexcusable, and if he wasn't a publicity hound and making it into a holy war, he would be in jail for doing so.
     
  11. wouldabeen23

    wouldabeen23 Member

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    It's grandstanding in the guise of religious conviction; he is blantant in his search for publicity.....another abuse of religion to further one's own status. Likening himself to Daniel and Moses?!! Give me a break---this man needs to read "Inferno"...
     
  12. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    what does the order say?? generally in appeals, you don't have to comply with the lower court order while you're still on appeal.

    having said that...i also understand the monument is outside the courthouse...if the feds want it, they can go get it...but i also understand that there are a group of protestors surrounding it. you remember that whole non-violent civil disobedience thing, right?
     
  13. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    MadMax, didn't the U.S. Supreme Court reject his appeal? It seems he can't go much higher than that.
     
  14. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    yeah..it can't be that he actually believes all this, "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shall not steal" stuff!!! it must be grandstanding...cause no one really believes strongly in that stuff anymore, do they?
     
  15. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    was that the final determination, yesterday? is that exhaustive of all appeals on all issues in this matter? i haven't read the paper this morning.
     
  16. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    From the original article posted in this thread:

     
  17. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    this was just an emergency motion for stay of judgment that was presented to SCOTUS yesterday...not the substantive issue. and given the massive size of this monument and the cost of taking it down and then putting it back up if he wins, this thing ain't coming down until all appeals are exhausted.

    http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2059363

    Late Wednesday afternoon, the U.S. Supreme Court had rejected Moore's emergency plea for a stay of the federal court order, declining for the time being to be drawn into a dispute over whether the monument violates the Constitution's ban on government promotion of religion.

    Moore, who installed the monument in the rotunda of the judicial building two years ago in the middle of the night, said in a statement that he does not consider the case over. He said he still plans to appeal to the Supreme Court on the merits of the case.
     
  18. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    That's what I get for aruging with a lawyer. :D
     
  19. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    yeah, right!!! you're already a freaking laywer..you just don't know it yet! :)
     
  20. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    I'll probably figure it out sometime around May of 2007!
     

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