Ok, I'm not convinced that we're going to be perenial cellar dwellers or anything. I think we'll probably make the playoff's this year and for quite a few to come. But my question is what direction is this team going to take? I mean we have tonnes of money tied up in overpaid players and we basically have about half of a championship roster. Ming, Francis, Mobley and err um.. a role player or two. The problem is we're paying our half of a championship team like a championship team. But lets assume we get out of cap trouble. How do Ming and Francis equal a championship. I think they are good pieces to different puzzles honestly. I'm trying to think of the last championship team that had a point guard and center that averaged over 20pts a game the same year. Magic and Kareem? did they do it? I honestly don't know, but even if they did, it probably had more to do with Magic's passing ability. If the pg and C are the main offensive options then I don't think that you get the rest of the team involved in the offense. I guess this is the problem i've had all along with the makeup of our team. I think that Ming is more "special" than francis, but they are both great players. I'm just curious maybe somebody has a different theory, but i wonder if we're building on the right blocks for a championship here... Mike
You're right we are basically stuck with the cast and crew as it now stands and hope they suddenly develope into Champs. Unfortunatley I don't see it, not with this cast; there are only three or four players who I would keep were we not tied to them all with those contracts.
If there haven't been many great teams built around a center and a point guard it would probably be because those are two of the most difficult positions to fill with a star player. i sincerely doubt teams have tried to avoid that scenario. I think we're in very good shape and can be a championship contender in a few years.
Jordan's Bulls didn't have a center. That's the exception. Other than that, EVERY championship team in the past 20 years has had a dominating big man (I'm considering Duncan a dominant big man). The title teams of the 80s and 90s: Lakers - Jabar, Shaq Celtics - Parish, Walton (in 86 he was veeerrrrrryy fortunate to stay injury free) Sixers - Malone Spurs - Duncan Pistons - Lambier Bulls - the exception Oh, and one other championship team was built around a Center. Dag nabbit, which one? Memory's fading, I'll need to check NBA.com. We have a player that will develop into a dominant big man. My concern is the short term. Long term, I think our outlook is as good as any team's in the league. Seriously----if you look around the league, based on talent, youth, and potential, which team would you rather have in five years? You could make some arguments, but I'd have to think the Rox are in the top 5 as far as five-year outlook.
My question wasn't about a a dominating center.. I kind of remember H.O, I was only like 15/16 and don't really remember that well (j/k). I'm wondering if a scoring pg and a dominant center can coexist. It seems like that causes problems. I'm assuming that Ming does become a dominant center. I just can't think of a CENTER and PG averaging 20+ pts in the same year and winning a championship reciently. When Magic and Kareem did it magic also averaged almost twice the assists that Francis does, and the scores of games were in the 220 - 240 and more sometimes. There just isnt anything that special about Francis as a passer, like there was Magic. Maybe i'm just too worried.. it was more of a question than a statement. Mike
Kareem and Magic definitely did it. Jabbar and the Big O probably did, but people argue about what position he played, but it didn't matter, he was running the point anyway. I can't think of anyone else... Right now the Rocket's future really depends on Yao's and EGriff's development. This is Eddie's third year and increbibly important for him financially. He'd better have a sence of urgency or this year will end up costing him millions. My concerns about Yao involve his conditioning and stamina. You'd think that working on the Rocket's program will show some results. I think he'll improve this year, but I think it my be next season before we see a player ready to dominate. And I pray Steve and Cat after playing with Yao for a season have a better idea of how they can make him more effective. This Posey deal really has really taken a chunk out of my optimism. I'd feel better if I thought Rice had a prayer of staying healthy all season. But I don't. So given our problems at the 3 and uncertainty at the 4, we've got serious problems, not to mention Van Gundy's going to have to get production from Mooch. I don't think we're totally screwed, but we might be.
Okay, maybe I was being too snarky. Fair enough. You bring up a good point that Francis is a shoot-first brand of point guard. Something that is oft-lamented on this board, and something that will have to be addressed down the road. The first Rox/Lakers game, though, is an excellent example of what Stevie's firepower can do for this team. I'd love to see Francis pass more. But I feel pretty good about the 1 and the 5 being set for the next seven, ten years.
Lambier was hardly dominating at that stage of his career. Solid numbers (12-13points 10 boards) but hardly dominating. I would also question whether or not Parrish dominated ( 17/10 ). Very good numbers, but a notch or two below the second year Olajuwon. Walton in 85-86 doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with the rest of these guys. j
Okay, so maybe "dominant center" is overstating things a tad. My larger point was that--in general--championship teams tend to have at least All-Star caliber centers. And these days, it's tough to get an All-Star caliber center. We have one. And we have an All-Star point guard. Both are young. This is why I'm not sweating the small stuff and remain very optomisitc about the longterm outlook of this team.
I think this team is one semi-star (Odom, Brand, Rasheed, SAR) and 2 blue collar starters away from contending for the title. If I had some realistic suggestions, they would be to build our team into this: Yao Rasheed Wallace Matt Harpring Steve Francis Eric Snow I think that team would be right there with the top teams in the West, especially if Steve adjusts to playing the 2 properly. You have 3 players, all of which will be between 18 and 22 ppg. Rasheed is a great compliment for Yao, and they can exchange their places in the high post or low post. They have enormous range, which is very important with zone defenses, and they're both able to dominate their position in 90% or more of matchups. Francis would be the same 20/6/6 guy, but from the SG position, while Snow piles up the assists, and along with Harpring, make this one of the best defensive teams in the league.
How about this roster next season 2004: Yao/Cato MoT/Badianne Kobe/Boki Mobley/sub multi faceted serbian guard/Jauquin Pargo/Mooch
You could make an argument that last year's championship team was basically built around its PG (Parker) and a center (Duncan).
This has been the cornerstone of my arguement for more than 12 months. I have been accused of being a Yao Only Fan, a Francis hater and not a rockets Fan . All that I want is for the Houston Rockets to get back in the race! Last season we earned the reputation of being a Guard Oriented Team with underacheivers at the Center and Small Forward positions. We had the Guards doing their thing and the Team Game was not developed. The question remains will JVG and his Assistants demand that players come together and play the Team Game, will he find the true direction for the Team and work for all to go in that direction or will he have two different camps like last year? Will he bring the death to Dribble Mania and the low number of Assists made by our Team, will he turn a weak Defence into a Great Wall of hated defenders, or will we just have more of the same?
Count me in with the crowd that feels we need another "star" on this team. Just look at my signature! To compete in the Western Conference these days unless you have an MVP caliber type player (Duncan, Shaq etc) you need 3 star type players. For this analysis I define a "star" player as a player that is an all star or on the cusp of being an all star. Yao and Francis are already there, but we need one more player. Griffin and Mobley have potential to be there but aren't there yet. In Sane's example lineup we have added Rasheed Wallace who indeed would fit into my "star" player category. Then of course if you add a high quality "super role player" like Harpring and another good role player in Snow you are in business. But the core of the team will be Yao, Francis and the 3rd "star player." Just look at the Western Conference to see my point.... Lakers - Kobe, Shaq, Payton, Malone Spurs - Duncan (MVP), Parker Mavs - Nash, Nowitzki, Finley Kings - Webber, Peja, Bibby Wolves - Garnett, Cassell, Sprewell/Wally Suns - Marbury, Marion, Stoudamire Those are the teams we have to contend with and that's why we need one more star player and then fill the roster with role players. Mobley is really the closest we have to a 3rd star player. And on nights when he is playing well (along with Yao and Francis) we CAN compete with those teams! However, what keeps Mobley from being that 3rd star player is that he is too inconsistant and that's why for the most part we can't compete with those teams in the "long run" unless we get that 3rd star player to complete our team.
Deuce, I am never going to call you a Homer and now I know why people say the grass looks green on the other side. Why would you look all over the place for your 3rd STAR when there are more than one candidate already on the team. I have listed below the stats for Mobley compared to Sprewell and Finley who are on your list. In addition I have listed EG and Amare. Despite Amare winning rookie of the year I believe EG has as many tools as Amare does to score 20/game in this league. Regarding the guards, the numbers speak for themselves. So out of a potential four stars, I would say we have 3. In addition the second teir players we bring, like MoT, Posey(I hope), Pike, and Cato matches up with those of any of those teams. Cuttino Mobley Houston Rockets Position: G Height: 6-4 Weight: 210 College: Rhode Island '98 Player file | Team stats 2002-03 Statistics PPG 17.5 RPG 4.2 APG 2.8 SPG 1.30 BPG .49 FG% .434 FT% .858 3P% .352 MPG 41.7 Michael Finley Dallas Mavericks Position: G-F Height: 6-7 Weight: 225 College: Wisconsin '95 Player file | Team stats 2002-03 Statistics PPG 19.3 RPG 5.8 APG 3.0 SPG 1.10 BPG .30 FG% .425 FT% .861 3P% .370 MPG 38.3 Latrell Sprewell New York Knicks Position: F-G Height: 6-5 Weight: 195 College: Alabama '92 Player file | Team stats 2002-03 Statistics PPG 16.4 RPG 3.9 APG 4.5 SPG 1.38 BPG .30 FG% .403 FT% .794 3P% .372 MPG 38.6 Eddie Griffin Houston Rockets Position: F Height: 6-10 Weight: 232 College: Seton Hall '04 Player file | Team stats 2002-03 Statistics PPG 8.6 RPG 6.0 APG 1.1 SPG .68 BPG 1.44 FG% .400 FT% .617 3P% .333 MPG 24.5 Amare Stoudemire Phoenix Suns Position: F Height: 6-10 Weight: 245 High School: Cypress Creek (Orlando, FL) '0 Player file | Team stats 2002-03 Statistics PPG 13.5 RPG 8.8 APG 1.0 SPG .76 BPG 1.06 FG% .472 FT% .661 3P% .200 MPG 31.3
First of all, statistics are very overrated. Second of all, let's look at those statistics anyway: Amare Stoudamire, you can count him out. He can be a star because he's about 6'10, 240, strong as a bear, and was a rookie out of highschool when he posted those numbers. Not to mention, ROY. So he's going to improve on those numbers big time, and has way more room for improvement than Mobley. In 3 more minutes, Mobley averaged only .2 more steals, .2 more blocks and a .011 better FG% than Finley. In less minutes. Finley beats him out in scoring, rebounding, PASSING, 3-pt%, and you know what else? Defense, which doesn't show up. Mobley turned his defense up a notch last season, but Finley is one of the better defenders at the league, and he brings slightly better size than Mobley. Sprewell. You can make a case here, but I wouldn't consider Sprewell the 3rd star we need. However, in Minny, he will show that he can be. He played out of position for the Knicks, and his defense beats both Mobley and Finley. His experience is priceless, and his leadership qualities are brilliant. Still, in his WORST season as a pro, he averaged a better 3-pt%, better ASSISTS PER GAME, and better steals in less minutes. I would trade Griffin for Stoudamire in a heartbeat, and Mobley for Finley without blinking. I'd have to think long and hard abotu trading Mobley for Sprewell, but in the end I probably would becaue Sprewell is a JVG favourite, brings the leadership and unselfishness that this team needs, and will generally make this team more mature.
Sane, lets keep the comparisons guard to guard and forward to forward or did you mean to say EG instead of Mobley. First, the point I am making is that they are all in the same class. As impressed as I am with Amare, there is no way that Amare is in a class above EG. Amare does not have a jumpshot and his offensive game right now has alot of "bull-dozing" in it. No turnaround baseline jumpshot. I see Cato and Yao handle him pretty good last year. The special thing about him is his attitude and hunger. They are just different players but I am excited about what each player brings and will bring in the future. In evaluating the stats you did not seem to cater for the difference in the systems that Mobley and Finley plays in. Again I am not taking anything away from Finley when I remind folks that Mobley is special too. Mobley playing for Don Nelson in that style, I cannot think of one thing that Nelson would ask Finley to do and Mobley would not be able to do. If he ask Mobley to run, he can; if he ask him to break down his man, he can; if ask to handle the ball, he can; if he ask him to shoot 3's all night, he can; if he wants Mobley on either end of an alley-hoop play, he can; rebound the ball, he can. Regarding Spree, I have seen enough of those matchups where Mobley showed he belonged including killing Spree on a game winning iso play going baseline in NYC.
Amare cannot really shoot......and is terribly inconsistent...but he has some highlight plays. He is very flashy with his monster dunks and athleticism. He's so aggressive...he is very inconsistent.....scoring 2 one night and 20 another. I would definitely trade Griffin for Amare. Amare is not one class better though. Of course...the Suns wouldn't trade Amare for Griffin. I would also trade Finley for Mobley because Finley is one of my favorite players. They are basically the same but Finley has even more power and can really jump and can throw it down BIG. He is taller too. But the Mavs wouldn't trade Finley for Mobley at this current time.
