I've got to ask... why? I'm all for religious beliefs, and I agree with everyone's right to one. That said.......... I've always been astounded by people who feel there is nothing outside of this life. How is this possible? Have you read the Bible? Have you read NASA's reading's? What makes you so adamant that there is "nothing" after this life? Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of friends that feel this way, and I've tried (albeit without fruition) to get them to at least believe in something. I've never understood this. Maybe I was blessed at a younger age to know differently, but that doesn't mean that non-believer's can't also, does it? I would really, really like to know why anyone thinks there is nothing beyond this world. (and I don't believe in any of the crap "clairvoyance" shows that have been out recently, either.) Either way, let me know why you feel there isn't anything, afterwards.
I am not an athiest, but I have friends that are and I have talked to them about the subject many times. Their defense is that there is absolutely no physical proof. They say that they will not believe in God unless they witness God.
So what was your question to the Pagans? Your whole post concerned Atheism, not Paganism. Personally, I'm Agnostic. I don't know what is out there, and I'm not really that interested to believe in or seek out only one set of ideals. I generally believe that you need to live a good life: treat others with respect, do unto to others, that kind of stuff. Basically, just be a good person and god'll take care of you (I'm not speaking of any deity in particular). I don't understand Atheism either. I believe our souls carry on. To think that there simply isn't anything beyond this dreary world is quite depressing, I think.
And I can guarantee there will never be concrete proof. To me thats the point. They're not going to give you a rock and say "is this a rock?" My point I suppose is this..... Ok Atheist/pagan: you're right! Wonderful! Your correct guess gives you???? Death. Ok Christians: you're wrong. Wayyy wrong. Your incorrect answer gives you??? Death. Whereas, the opposites are obvious. That's my point.
Just to clarify -- pagans aren't the same as athiests. Pagans do believe there is more outside of this life. Although they don't worship the Christian god, they do worship other gods and, usually more importantly, goddesses. Paganism is generally thought of as an earth-based religion because so much emphasis is placed on honoring and working with the spirits that pagans believe can be found in the natural world. They do believe in an afterlife as well. Since I'm not an athiest, I can't really answer any of your questions. But I can understand where athiests are coming from. I also find it interesting Fatty that you chide athiests for their non-belief while at the same time mocking clairvoyance. How is one invisible phenomenon any more valid than another invisible phenomenon?
Lynus: I apologize to pagan's, BUT I do feel you need to choose a belief, if any. The fact that you believe in something is not good enough IMO. However, I'm not the one doing the judging, am I?
Obviously, there is a force out there. What makes the trees grow, and evolution happen? I just don't believe in any of the human religions. I believe in nature.
I'm sorry, I'm still confused....were you confusing Atheists with Pagans, and if so, if that all cleared up now? As I said and as Mrs JB said, Pagans do have beliefs. Strong ones, I might add, and are not like Atheists at all in that regard. With that remark, it kinda sounds like you are.
Will they then ask "is this a hard place and are you between it"? I'm not an atheist, but I understand what they believe in for the most part (I think help me out). You live, consume, die and give back to the earth and thats all, no soul, no eternal life etc. Atheist is in no way a negative philosophy on life and death as it is often described, live life to the fullest and be happy.
Mrs JB: We're obviously off to a bad start, and I don't mind that! ( I like people with good arguments) I've grown up with atheist's, as well as pagan's (you'll like to know, however, that there are plenty of Pagan's that don't believe in any God, and that was my point. As far as Clairvoyance? Hard to say, but I will never believe in a man who "chooses" random thoughts that could be easily gauged as their own...... On a talk show. As for my personal beliefs? I grew up in a haunted house in 1974-75. (This was posted wayyyy back, but it can be found, or I will repost it.) And I have a photographed picture in my home since 1978 that is either an Angel, or Jesus. (although I have always assumed the former.) This IS a picture (Kodak) Could it have been fake? Sure! However, no one has ever replicated this photo that was developed by my family in 1978. I would be able to scan this photo if y'all need to see it. (although I would have to go to my folks house.) My post isn't to people who believe. Rather, it is a post to people who Don't Believe in Anything, and their rationalizations as to why?
Ok, Lynus, as I said it's never my decision, and it never will be. (I also discussed that I have many friends who are atheists. I don't like their beliefs, but I like them.) Make sense?
Why do you feel you have to make any judgement on your friends' beliefs? It's their life/afterlife not yours. Their personal relationship with god or lack thereof is really none of your business. You said you've try to convert them into believing like you do. Have they ever tried to do the same to you? If not, don't you think it's a little disrespectful for you to do that to them? I am an Atheist raised as a Catholic. Am I 100% sure that there is nothing after death? nope. Have I seen any proof to the contrary? nope. Is believing in something even a question of choice? Either you do or you don't right? Could you choose not to believe if you wanted to?
Atheists also have strong beliefs. You would have to to overcome the hate and ridicule we have to put up with from society at large. This notion that Atheism is laziness and taking the easy way out is wrong. We consider the facts presented before us just like you agnostics and believers do and have simply come to a different conclusion about those facts. Why is this so hard to accept? FFB, does your god care if I believe in him or not? am i hurting his feelings if i don't? how does my atheism affect your life in any way, shape or form? Are you asking these questions because you honestly want to learn more about atheism or are you asking them because you want so badly to prove us wrong?
Why does anything need to be judged? Some of us simply find God to be a creation on the part of humanity to compensate for the inability to accept that we are simply a small part of nature, not very much more important or meaningful in the universe than any other life. In most cultures throughout history there have been stories and fairy tales about gods to explain the unexplainable. What makes Christianity or Islam or whatever other current religion any different? They're just the stories for these times. There'll be another story told and another and another until the end of time. Personally I'd rather spend my time leading a good life than worshipping version x of whatever god is in vogue at this juncture in history.
Sorry, I should have clarified: Atheists do indeed have strong beliefs, and I never meant to imply otherwise. What I meant is that Paganism is a religion where as Atheism is not; not in the same sense, at least. In short, Paganism is just like any other religion in that it is a religion that recognizes a higher power(s). I figured the difference would be implied....should have known better. Sorry for any confusion.
Few points: 1) As said, paganism has nothing whatsoever to do with atheism... 2) Even atheism does not, by definition, mean that they believe that nothing exists beyond this life. There have been philosophies which denied the existence of 'God', but were still transcendentalist. 3) I am an agnostic...although at my lower moments I wonder if I'm an atheist in denial out of fear of nihilism. That said, the argument that those who are not believing in God are missing out, whichever way the truth lies, doesn't cut it. The gambit has been disproved; If there is meaning and there is no God, than the true meaning exists outside of a God concept, and a life spent looking for God is therefore a life wasted, whereas a life spent looking for what meaning, however less comfortable, in the real world is better spent. Myself, I prefer to believe that there is something akin to God...but the only people who are wasting their time, IMO, are those who don't bother to look becuase of the lack of readily available answers. Soundbite mentality at it's worst.
I just think this life is good enough. I believe the cosmos is heaven. I don't need anything more. To me that is escapism. You think without an afterlife, "you" die and become nothing. But what you perceive as nothing, I perceive as everything. I believe that "I" already have and will continue to exist eternally in different forms. The idea of self is a sham.
So are you saying that Atheist should fake it and pretend to be Christians just in case. If there is a God then he would be "all-knowing" so this would not be possible. You either believe in something or you don't, there is no pretending or in between. I grew up Catholic but now I would have to say that I'm Atheist because I don't fully believe. I have doubts. I wish I did have complete faith because life would be much easier but I can't pretend to be something that I'm not.
