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A Jew with a Conscience Calls for a Boycott of Israel

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Feb 5, 2013.

  1. glynch

    glynch Member

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    It can help brig peace in the region. The boycott of South Africa helped end apartheid there and it can help do so with Israel. It is a current issue in NYC because the supporters of Israel right or wrong are going out to pressure the Political Science Dept at Broolyn college from having pro-boycott/divestment speakers at a student forum.
    ............
    I am for boycott because I have many times observed conditions under military occupation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Gaza that reflect apartheid policies effected by Israel. I have seen ethnic cleansing, village demolitions, collective punishment, suppression of demonstrations, confiscation of land, hateful checkpoint systems fit for livestock, and violent targeting of civilians, and all these policies carried out on an ethnic basis. If you were Jewish, it wouldn't be happening to you.

    ...
    The conditions I've observed are revolutionary conditions: they are the tinder of violent uprising and annihilationist dreams. Any people subject to these conditions would take up arms. I know that New Yorkers would. And Palestinians have taken up arms many times, and violence has never served them. And that is why I am for boycott. Boycott is painful but it is nonviolent. And we need a nonviolent solution to the tyranny that exists in Palestine. A nonviolent solution is highly unlikely, but it is the best hope; and boycott has the potential to isolate and punish the Israeli regime in such a way that it might begin to transform itself, and that international human-rights norms will at last apply.

    But I am American, and I am for boycott because of the American paralysis over the issue, best demonstrated by the Chuck Hagel hearing last week. Our political parties have an inability to talk about Palestinian conditions frankly. Hagel's words about Palestinians being treated like caged animals were stuffed down his throat, and no Democrat could speak up for those views

    . Our politics are broken on this issue. Four years ago I was in Cairo and sat in the audience as Obama spoke of Palestinian humiliations and declared, The settlements must end. The young people in the audience cheered him, their faces were lit with smiles. Four years on that policy is a shambles; Obama has walked away from his words, the settlements go on unabated. When liberal Zionists say that Obama must pressure Israel, they ignore this political wreckage. Why is he going to change now and pressure Israel when the lobby has handed his head to him (and Netanyahu) over the last four years?

    When governments fail to act on crying injustices, the people must act, people of conscience, like us. When the United States government was controlled by the slave power in the 1840s and 50s, abolitionists pushed the country forward, they changed the American discourse. I do not seek the violence that ended slavery, but I am a fellow traveler today to the abolitionists of the Israel/Palestine conflict.

    I think BDS is a popular movement, and it can force governments to act. I don't believe that Israel can continue to be a Jewish state when 20 percent of its citizens are non-Jews. I don't believe that the two-state solution is still viable; I want to see a peaceful transition to a democracy, perhaps involving binationalism, or federation as initial steps.

    I have avoided all discussion here of cultural and academic boycott, anti-normalization measures, and the desire some have expressed to transform Israel with a flood of returning refugees, to revolutionize 1948.

    I am sometimes troubled by the rhetoric of the camp I follow, but I am a fellow traveler, and I know as Tony Judt knew 10 years ago (and as Charles Dickens knew in 1842, when he republished abolitionist tracts) these people are on the right side of history; and as to the right of return, it is very difficult to visit an ethnically-cleansed land, Israel, and see it market itself as a European high tech country and also a fantasy of Jewish power, and know that it does so on the ruined villages of people who live a few miles away, even as it invites Jews from around the world to "return" there. That is the return that most disturbs me as a Jew, the injustice I see before my eyes.

    Omar Barghouti once said to me, If you want to boycott an egg, we want you to boycott that egg. That is now my slogan. I welcome all who would seek to punish Israel's behavior in the occupied territories by doing something. Governments have failed to do anything. Boycott is my way of taking action about a human-rights calamity that is perpetrated in my name, as an American and a Jew.
    http://mondoweiss.net/2013/02/why-im-for-boycott.html
     
  2. larsv8

    larsv8 Member

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    Clayton Bigsby?
     
  3. LosPollosHermanos

    Supporting Member

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    Norman Finkelstein is a pertty cool guy too.
     
  4. AroundTheWorld

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    glynch, why do you hate Israel so much?
     
  5. Liberon

    Liberon Rookie

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    Clayton Bigsby: "Big hooked nosed breathing all the money up." Alternative reasons: "They bunch crack smoking swindlers, big butt having jivers, they eat up all the chickens and they think they're the best dancers." "Oh wait"
     
  6. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Typical. This is alll the defenders of current Israeli policies toward the Palestinaians have.

    I am unhappy with Israel probably for the same reaon you are so happy with it. It is currently an Apartheid society that is very racist/ethocentric toward other humans--in this case Muslims.


    I believe Israel will eventually be fine, like South Africa and Northern Ireland, once Apartheid breaks down.

    Apartheid is not healthy for the rulers either.

    Too bad you have learned noting from the mistakes of your grand parent's generation in Nazi Germany. Thankfully this does not seem to be the case with many younger Germans.
     
    3 people like this.
  7. trustme

    trustme Member

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    Well said.
     
  8. AroundTheWorld

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    So you are saying that I would be happy if Muslims get discriminated against, because you think I am racist? That is a pretty serious allegation.

    So because I point out your constant anti-semitic and anti-Israel posts, you link me to Nazis? And you also claim that Israel = Nazi Germany?

    You are off your rocker.
     
  9. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    I have a lot of issues with the BDS movement. That isn't to say I have any issue with the moral justification of it, or the idea that Israel should have pressure on it from the outside world to keep from feeling comfortable with it's indefinite occupation without either full-out annexation of the West Bank(and universal suffrage) or a hasty departure.

    The ethical arguments against Occupation are sound, and the piece name-checks Noam Sheizaf, who I like, and is notably disciplined with arguing within the confines of a refreshingly fact-based universe. Unfortunately his conclusions, like his contemporaries, have rendered him a One-stater that advocates a secular, moral, and pacifistic bi-national state that sounds very appealing, but would poll at about 5% at best if we are to look at the voting results of current day Israelis and Palestinians as a guide. It is, in effect, a proposed democratic state that no democracy in the Levant would reasonably elect itself.

    The BDS movement exists for a good reason. Palestine should have been a state 20 years ago. But in frustration, I think it overreaches, and presumes a single state solution that neither people would be willing to accept.

    I could go on, but I don't want to bore everyone with another post turned into a long-winded and poorly edited Op-Ed. ;)
     
  10. glynch

    glynch Member

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    deji

    While I support the one state solution, as I think it supports the essential rights of all the people who live there, I don't think that the boycott-divestment movement can only be used to pressure Israel into a one state solution, but to behave in general wrt to human rights.

    If true it is sort of sad that only 5% of Israelis who claim to be in line with the values that are esteemed in the United States and Western Europe.

    As to whether it would only be 5% I tend to doubt this statistic. First there are more than 5% of even pre 1967 Israel who are Palestinians and I doubt they want to continue in second class status. As for 5%. At one time you probably could have gotten that polling figure among Afrikaners or southerners in Mississippi, but things can change. I am not so sure whether only 5% of the occupied would be against a modern secular democracy. Some of them are Christians and in general the groups got along prior to colonization by European Jews.
     
  11. thegary

    thegary Member

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    the new generations of germans (neofacist idiots aside) cannot be held accountable for the atrocities of the past, unless you are trying to argue that germans are inherently evil. there are many reasons to loathe germans with raging intensity :), but nazism is not one of them. nobody is born evil unless you consider pedophiles, serial killers, and the like as coming into this world "defective." the reasons for evil are, on the bottom end, a result of utter desperation, from on high lust, the lust for power.
     
  12. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    One could easily argue it doesn't support the rights of people who are claiming to be doing the will of a higher power, which is an awful lot of them. ;)

    The problem is not one or two states. I think any real advocacy should be forcing or at least incentivizing a decision between those two instead of indefinitely resting on the third, which is the status quo. Changing as little as possible for as long as possible is a logical decision for Israel if it wants maximum benefit for the least effort.

    The only group that can supply that kind of pressure are American Jews as a whole, and world leaders like Merkel, Cameron and Obama, all of which are often less critical of Israeli policy than the Israeli center-left. It would need carrot and stick, and I would imagine big carrots, like EU or NATO membership.

    It's not scientific, but even still, I'd say it's an optimistic number.

    Palestinians have very strong national aspirations and overwhelmingly want their own state. And whether that state is just Gaza and the West Bank, just the West Bank, or all of what was formerly the British Mandate, it's not one they are too keen to share with Jews (especially considering the last 70 years or so), outside of the a small minority of the far-left who have a post-nationalist world view to begin with.

    Likewise, Jews in Israel overwhelmingly see a single state as a threat to their already insecure identity if it were to become a bi-national state or one dominated by an Arabic speaking electorate. Not only would it invite proper and indisputable apartheid, it would be one that would likely succeed. It would almost certainly cause Israel's secular and educated to flee to the US or Europe, leaving behind the nutballs to fight the "good fight." I have no doubt that a frightened Jewish right-wing minority in such a future state would be at least as brutal and unwilling to cooperate (and bigoted) as any Islamist terrorist group active today.

    And it doesn't factor the odd position of most Arabs who are Israeli citizens, that identify with Palestinian national aspiration and prefer to be called Palestinians, but would prefer to remain Israeli citizens and enjoy the benefits from it.

    Other than maybe Hadash voters and some Balad voters in Israel, and their ideological pro-peace Marxists in Ramallah, you'd be lucky to get 5%. There are many writers and academics who advocate it (and some argue very eloquently), but those groups have a much higher identification with the international Left than the general population and have a marginal at best influence on politics as it is now on either side of the Green Line.

    It's a perfectly just proposition, but it has less chance of being accepted than the Vatican does of condoms in places ravaged by HIV.
     
    #12 Deji McGever, Feb 6, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  13. bongman

    bongman Member

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    I believe you are lumping political views with the general population views. For the most part, most Israelis Jews and Arabs get along fine and have no discrimination. It's the political agenda that makes it look like they don't like each other.
     
  14. glynch

    glynch Member

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    That is not what I hear, but it doesn't make Jews or Muslims in the land bad people. Just like not all whites who more or less supported segregation in the South were bad people who mistreated or disliked individual African Americans or viceversa. I had a neighbor here in Houston who could not go more than 5 minutes without using the N word, to the point that we told him very directly to stop it, we did not want our kid to be hearing that *hit Funny thing. He would go out fishing with a coworker who was AA, to quote the neighbor "old Charlie, he is a N**** but a good one."

    I hear that many Americans who visit Israel beyond a few tourist sites are shocked at the way Israelis talk about Muslims.
     
  15. cardpire

    cardpire Member

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    "A Jew with a Conscience".

    you are bigoted filth. surprised i'm the first person to point that out.
     
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  16. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Hey, one of my grandparents was from Germany. It is sad to have ATW be a representative of Germans with his behavior on this bbs.
     
  17. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Seriously.

    Why is it ok to say that?
     
  18. bongman

    bongman Member

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    I have been to Israel 4 times for business and my initial expectations were much in line with what you said. It did not take me long to change my point of view. My visits were not limited to just work but had opportunities to visit ALL of the different historical sites so my exposure was not just from a working person's perspective but also as a tourist.

    In a working environment, there is no segregation between them. Teams are not divided based on ethnicity. What is more astonishing is that you would think that during lunchtime, people would tend to dine with their own. Instead, it was very common to have both Arab and Jews dine in the same table all the time and of course, they would argue more then they would eat :grin:

    As a tourist, you will find that certain places have a larger population of Arabs ( and vice versa) but you won't see signs that say for Arabs or Jews only. One thing is clearly obvious to me, Israelis HATE discrimination of any kind.

    I suggest that you visit Israel as you will be astonished how warm and very hospitable the people are(especially if your American). The info you are getting regarding personal experiences can be biased based on the person you are talking to.

    Apartheid is a very strong word that deals with laws which specifically segregates the population. This is not true for Israel.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html
     
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  19. NotInMyHouse

    NotInMyHouse Member

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    You have a serious obsession with devolving into this crap...

    Sad.
     
  20. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Wow, take it out of context why don't you. As an aside I was not saying that it is that rare for a Jew to have a conscience-- just the type of conscience toward the suffering of Palestinians the author shows.

    PS perhaps you are used to this type of statement closing off discussion of the treatment of Palestinians and the Jewish-Palestinian issue. It doesn't work here and is increasingly ineffective for supporters of the Israeli status quo. In the long run only pressuring israel to be more just will be supportive.
     

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