Well, it seems that every possible avenue of debate or discussion on Ming has been exhausted, and frankly, I've getting quite sick of hearing the same regurgitate arguments on him since it seems we are getting him so I'd like to hear opinions on something else. If we get Ming, what about... Trading KT!?!? I know that this has not been discussed for a while, and I want to bring this topic back up. (Ehehe I know I'm regurgitating myself) There have been several trade proposals involving the KT, #15, and several fillers/players. My case for NOT trading KT 1) I know there have been several arguments toward the glut at pf that the Rockets have had so far. The Removal of KT would leave two pf's in the line and I will discuss them here. Eddie Griffin = A sophomore tweener(at this point, his skills seem to point toward pf), who has the possibility of becoming a great player and has shown flashes of greatness. However, is still maturing at only 20 years of age but has the possibilty of filling the spot. Maurice Taylor = The most likely starter for the next season given the absence of KT. Barring injuries, he is primarily used as an outside spot-up shooter who rarely uses his size to his advantage and an average defender at best. 2) Now, what is the missing element here? DESIRE! which in my book equals passion, hustle, and aggresive play. KT is the epitomy of DESIRE. 3) A player with Desire is a necessary component of good teams, and I would not be talking about this issue except for the fact that our team is severely lacking in it. In support of my case Desire analysis of the Houston Rockets Steve Francis = YES Moochie Norris - He has the clutch and arguably the desire, but seems always one step too slow. Hustle is not there. Tierre Brown - YES but hardly on the floor and makes too many mistakes to stay on. Cuttino Mobley - Yes on Offense, ? on defense, hustle is not there. Oscar Torres - For the most part YES except not on the floor enough. Glen Rice - Not Really Walt Williams - Not Really Terrence Morris - Yes but only flashes of it. Eddie Griffin - Hustle yes, aggresive play - not yet, passion - not required. Mo Taylor - as most would argue, is soft in this area Kelvin Cato - enough said Jason Collier - enough said Dan Langhi - enough said Yao Ming is not on the Rockets but at this point seems likely so - Seems to have the desire, but aggresive play and hustle are questionable. 4) Now if you will look, Stevie and KT are our only consistent contributors of the three elements of DESIRE(In my book anyway). 5) People may dismiss this, but it seems as though trading away KT unless for some incredible deal will bring in a vetern SF will just end up losing one half of our team's desire component. I feel that the Rockets can pick up just as good a SF prospect from #15 in this deep of a draft. 6) People talk about KT being the only tradable commidity, and this may be true, but I feel that his loss will be greater than our potential gain. 7) Note this is only my opinion, and I am getting sick of typing... but I would like some feedback on this issue.
I like Kenny's play on the court a whole lot. Keep him unless a good trade involving him forces our hand. But KT is a Stud in my book as far as hustle, attitude, play, etc...
I think that KT is staying. He is still a potential star. He has the desire to be a star as you said. I wouldn't be surprised if KT is hanging out at a gym, shooting 500 jump shots a day and working on his fitness level and handles, just waiting to show everybody that he is a starting small forward. Maybe Rocket or someone can comment on KT's summer. Of course if someone would throw in Dunlevy and a first rounder next year you'd have to consider
I'd like to keep KT, as long as we can find him some minutes. Wouldn't be fair to him to keep him around if we can't. I think it's pretty much agreed that our only real need if we draft Ming is a small forward. I don't think we need a stud here. If things go well, we've got to look at maxing out not only Steve but also Griffin and maybe Ming. Plus, Cat'll be due for a serious raise when his contract comes up again. We can't afford another max contract. And we don't need a stud at every starting spot. We should be able to get our guy with some combo of MCE and #15. I agree with your assessment of KT's desire, though I give a few of our guys more credit than you. I'm pro Mo, largely because of his desire. (Let's not go over the old rebounding argument again -- NJRocket and the rest think he should get more boards for his height. Others, like me, recognize he's playing away from the basket like Rudy wants him to, to open the lane for our guards.) KT has earned minutes. How happy will he be playing behind Mo and Griffin or out of position at the 3? If we can make him happy, I'd love to keep him. Hated to see Othella go and will hate it if Kenny has to go too.
I agree with much of the principle of the post, but how does Steve Francis have the special "desire" on the defensive end while Cuttino Mobley doesn't? Most likely neither do, but if anything, it would be the other way around...
Well since I'm a new poster and all I would just like to thank you all - The Cat, ron 413, glynch, and Batman Jones for responding to my thread and w/o bashing, it sometimes takes guts for me to start posts in fear of the bashing i might receive (not that I'm insecure or anything .
Don't trade KT.I think he will continue to get better,he showed hustle,desire and has the potential to emerge as a leader on our team.
Now I like the fact that you defined your definition of desire, but I must disagree to a certain point. To me Desire is: The urge to get better (without being prodded to do so) See Cato The need to win above all else , even your own personal wants as well as hustle and passion. Aggressive play can be a result of some of the above traits but aggressive play alone is not always a good thing. Sometimes you can be overly agressive to the detriment of the team( ball-hogging, overplaying defense, etc). Here is where I disagree... Steve - Yes Cat - Yes...regardless of his defense which was his strong suit in college( go check out his scouting report )he has gotten better every year. If it were not for the fact we have nobody who can hit shot consistantly except for Cat and Steve, maybe Cat would have more energy to play D. Griffin - yes/incomplete.....being he is so young and still has some growing to do, it was most likely a little tough being agressive. ( remember when you were 19 and you went to work with a bunch of profesionals 5-15 years older than you...it can be a bit overwhelming). For the most part he has done well. Moochie Norris - He has the clutch and arguably the desire, but seems always one step too slow. Hustle is not there.... I agree on this one Oscar Torres - For the most part YES except not on the floor enough.....I agree Glen Rice - Not Really....you mean that guy who we pay 9 mill+ that was on the DL all year.. Walt Williams - Not Really....completely agree, the next time he dives for a loose ball will be his first. Terrence Morris - Incomplete grade since he did not play enough. Shot the ball horrible at first by did start coming on toward the end of the season after injuries increased his PT Mo Taylor - as most would argue, is soft in this area...desire, MoT in the same sentence..no way Kelvin Cato - enough said...I wonder what Kelvin's definition of desire is...5 words...He desires a big contract Jason Collier - enough said ...yep Dan Langhi - enough said ...This can't be the former SEC player of the year...can it?!?!?! Yao Ming- if you use the critiera that I added as well as your own He meets all of them except for aggressive play( which he has not been forced to do...yet).
I don't think keeping KT is an issue of desire or talent. I'm not even sure if it is a question of a glut at a particular position. I think it mainly has to do with his value as a tradeable commodity. The Rockets aren't going to trade EG. He is a guy they want to commit to for the long haul at the 3/4/5 spot. Even if they wanted to (which they don't), they aren't going to move Mo because of his injury problems and salary - mostly the combination of his salary and injury problems. No one is going to trade for a guy who just signed a long-term deal coming off of a serious achillies injury. Now, KT has a small salary, only one year left on his contract and is coming off of a big improvement year. That makes him valuable on the open market. Now, unless we are planning on giving KT a contract equal to what we gave Mo Taylor AND extending EG then in 2 more years, we will have to re-think the process. There is no way we are going to have 3 power forwards with long-term deals on this team. Finally, the advantages Taylor and Griffin have over KT are that they can play more than one position. Taylor can slide to five when necessary and Griffin can play at least two positions. KT is too small to play center and not quick enough to play SF and the Rockets LOVE guys that can play multiple positions. Ultimately, if KT and a draft pick (plus maybe another player) will result in a young veteran player to plug a hole like we have at SF, that has to be considered as much as KT has done for the team. It could be argued that, were Taylor healthy last season, KT could have ended up #3 behind Taylor and Griffin if Griffin's development was significant enough and we would be wondering how to unload KT. I don't want to see him go, but he is about all we have when it comes to realistic trade possibilities.
I just wonder if there's a team out there in the lottery, say, in the 6-11 range, that wants KT and our #15. I suppose it's possible. We could pick up Welsch or Frank Williams, add KT, then deal them to a team needing such talents...probably in the East, as KT is an undersized PF. Cleveland? Hmn. New York? Nah, they'll take Hilario. Clips? Don't know, they can get a better deal for the #8. Heat? If they move Grant, maybe. Washington? Needs a small forward, too. There are also small forwards that we can deal for, I guess. I wouldn't rely on an earthshaking deal because other teams know, once we have Ming, that we really have only one other spot to solidify. But the Rox'll come up with something.
Nah, it ain't like that. I think the most important thing is to remember your post and opinion is just as important as the next guys. So don't hold back. Its all in good and fun. Enjoy your time here.
I realize KT has worked on his game probably more than anyone else on the Rockets and came to camp last year in the best shape of his life and on the team, but he seems to be a near clone of Othella Harrington (not in their respective games' but in their emotion and willingness to work hard). Othella was perfect for us that year when Barkley was injured and we could fall back on that left handed hook shot, but since we traded him, he has yet to show the kind of potential he showed in Houston. This may be from the way other teams are using him or it may be that we traded him at the perfect time. Either way, I think if we can get a near equal player for KT, I say we should go for it, especially since we have such a glut at pf, and virtually no chance of trading Mo. If it were up to me to trade either Mo or KT however, I would definitly trade Mo.
This BBS is not like some others. People here are actually capable of having disagreements without constant insults and name calling. I think that's because the obnoxious people get booted. Generally we only have bashing when some other teams fan starts something.
Jeff, i do not disagree with the gist of your post (that KT for a variety of reasons is likely the odd man out of the Taylor/Griffin/Thomas troika), but Mo T is not capable of sliding anywhere to play the 5. KT has more multiple-position ability than Mo T.
I say the better option is to find someone who wants Mo Taylor and just dump him. With Ming's shooting ability, and Mo Taylor's lack of rebounding skills, IMO Taylor is more expendable than ever. KT is more valuable because he can board like crazy and is a decent defender. Griffin and Ming will be scorers, so KT is more complementary to that type of setup. I'd rather see Griffin starting next year with KT at backup. It is time to let Griffin play his natural position, and the only way to develop the guy is to throw him in there and let him go night in and night out. Also, I don't think the Rockets should be so concerned with making the playoffs next year. I think they have a great opportunity to develop Griffin and Ming by just playing them a lot of minutes and getting them experience. That will pay off more in the long run than focusing on the playoffs at the expense of their development, IMO.
When Hakeem was out with his injuries in 00-01, Taylor slid over to the 5 and Kenny played at the 4. Mo's more than capable of playing the 5... outside of Shaq, what player can't he defend at 6'9 260? Mo has a big body, much bigger than Kenny's, and he has pretty good footwork down low. Mo could start against most centers not named Shaquille O'Neal, and what Jeff was talking about was playing Mo against some backup centers when the Rockets go smaller. Also, Axeman, for someone that can "board like crazy", Kenny only averaged one more rebound per game than Mo (when you project their stats over a 48 minute period) in the previous year. Kenny also had a worse rebounding big man to complement him (Cato instead of Olajuwon) so he definitely had his chances to do significantly more than Mo in that area. Mo Taylor - as most would argue, is soft in this area...desire, MoT in the same sentence..no way I'm not understanding this either. Is Mo a Ben Wallace on the glass? No. But rebounding and desire is NOT the same thing. There's a knack required in rebounding, and an intelligence to project where the ball will bounce off and of course the timing in when to jump. Desire, to me, is about having a love for the game and striving to improve, and Mo's one of the best on our team in this area. Remember how Mo hurt his knee? It was because he was training and playing basketball games on a daily basis to try and improve for the upcoming season. He was so enthusiastic about the Rockets team and their confidence in him, and working his ass off all summer to try and become a better player. I know someone will try and reply with a fat joke (though we're yet to hear a confirmed report of this), but if you've ever had such an injury where it's practically impossible to do much physical activity, it's easy to put on the pounds. Furthermore, for people with the kind of metabolism that naturally makes them fat (Barkley), they develop the weight extremely quickly when they stop working out on a day to day basis. You saw how quickly Chuck went from basketball shape to a mini Thomas Hamilton. Considering Mo's activities last summer and the desire he showed to improve, I'd at least give him the chance to work off the weight (since he can be physically active) before I dismiss him as the next Shawn Kemp.
I agree with Fuzzy. If we are trading KT it better be for somebody good. I wouldnt trade him just to move from #15 to #10 in the draft. Even if we lose him to FA next year, he still will be needed next season, because of Griffin's inexperience. Eventually Griffin will eat his bread, though. Hopefully Mo Taylor will show something next season to interest some teams in taking on his contract, and then we could sign Kenny on a long-term deal.
One thing that I think everyone might be missing: <i>The Rockets don't want to move Mo Taylor</i>. When you hear even Les Alexander talking about the future of the team, the players he lists go basically in this order: Francis, Mobley, Taylor, Griffin. Before Taylor's injury, the Rockets were pumped about Taylor's abilities and that they were able to sign him long-term. No matter what we might think about his salary or abilities, it is pretty clear the Rockets think otherwise.
In this past offseason, i wasn't a Thomas fan. I thought he played hard on both ends but is still basically a bench player. He came into camp light and quick and played very consistent the entire season. I would like to keep him, but because of his improvement and salary, it makes him the best trade bait we have.It is no way, on this team that he'll avg those numbers next yr. Unless taylor re injures himself or Griffin takes a nose dive next yr, its not enough minutes for him to get the production he had last yr. The ideal scenerio would be to trade taylor and his salary, let kenny start until Grifiin is ready and pay him enough to keep him happy and be a backup, but I don't think you could convince him of that this early in his career. Unless otherwise, I think Griffin is the player the Rockets want to man the 4 spot, but he may or may not be ready to do it this yr. Plus the rockets don't want to wind up like gsw did with Jackson. Gsw could have gotten a good player for the disgruntled Jackson had they not asked for so much in return and didn't give him minutes. The same can be said of Thomas if he's not shipped off this summer. As much of a team player he may be, if he's only getting 13-20 minutes a night in a contract yr, he will become disgruntled and its hard to convince gm's this is a good kid if he's pissed off from missing money. I think you could ship Kt,Collier and the 15 off to move up and resign Willis as the 3rd string 4/5 in case of injuries to the that position. Kenny is just in a bad situation.
