That time today the end of life of the disillusioned mass-murdering fool who killed 168...Too bad we can't blow him up. The lethal injection is too clean and neat. ------------------ Rarely is the question asked: Guns kill squirrels than REDRUM to fools across the nation?
I wish he had shown some remorse. I'm listening to the witnesses of his execution on CNN right now. Paraphrasing the brother of one victim...He didn't say anything. Looked straight into the camera with a look of defiance. This hasn't brought the closure that I had expected. Only time will tell. [This message has been edited by Smokey (edited June 11, 2001).]
Now McVeigh can become the poster boy FOR the death penalty. His gradual slipping into an eternal sleep (and the witnessing of it) will forever (and happily) damage the "cruel and unusual" argument against the death penalty. Of course the victim's families are still conflicted. They always will be. Their loss has been too abrupt, too needless, and too horrible. This execution is ultimately and truly about McVeigh getting his due (not survivors or victim's families getting their revenge) and about sending a message to other potential viscious killers. It only took 6 years or so to executive McVeigh. Now if we can only get it down to 6 months or so. If our society refuses to rid itself of monsters like McVeigh, then and only then should it be ashamed. ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited June 11, 2001).]
The lethal injection is too clean and neat. >No Kidding... 1)Sodium Pentothal and Barbiturate renders the prisoner unconcious. 2)Pavulon, a muscle relaxant, stops breathing by paralyzing the lungs and diaphragm. 3)Potasium Chloride stops the heart. 4)4 minutes later, its all good. You are no longer the Oklahoma Bomber. ------------------ "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever." [This message has been edited by mr_oily (edited June 11, 2001).]
Rich, Lethal Injection is not pretty...the body convulses and spasms for some time as the poisons go into it. I guess the difference is that the convicted don't know they suffer because they are asleep. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
We should all have it so good when our time comes.A chance to say good bye to our loved ones and then just slip off to sleep. The punishment should fit the crime he deserved to have a stick of tnt shoved up his arse. ------------------
Too clean and neat, huh? I guess that some people would prefer it if the guy was tortured a little first, before he was killed? Oh, and severity of punishment has never been shown to have much of a deterrance effect. ------------------ Bingbong was set up, led to an untimely death in the prime of his life for no other reason than pure malice. Things like that do not go unavenged. Sometimes it spills out onto the field of play.
If this bombing really was in retaliation for David Koresh and the Branch Davidian incident, what will be retribution for the "murder" of Timothy McVeigh? Whether you or I think it is murder is unimportant but I'm sure there will be quite a few militant separatists who will see it that way and will want to exact revenge. The cycle continues... ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
I would not want to face what I believe McVeigh is facing right now after his death. ------------------
rimbaud: that's not what the witnesses said. SamCassell: the Death Penalty has absolutely solved the problem of recidivism in capital crimes committed by any particular individual. ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited June 11, 2001).] [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited June 11, 2001).]
RichRocket, mia culpa. Maybe I should have been clearer. I was referring to your quote about "sending a message to other potential viscious [sic] killers" and thus talking about deterrance to others. But I suspect you knew that and were just trying to be cute. I would provide statistics, but I don't have any available at work. I will try to find some when I go home tonight, if anyone is actually interested. ------------------ Bingbong was set up, led to an untimely death in the prime of his life for no other reason than pure malice. Things like that do not go unavenged. Sometimes it spills out onto the field of play.
No, I didn't know. I just responded to what I thought you meant. I'd like to see your stats and to know HOW they were collected. Nothing is more reliable than self-reporting from felons or likely-felons. I know this: the death penalty deters me. I'm also motivated by a conscience, a desire to belong, and a spirit of generosity. Most people are that way and those that aren't that way should be deprived of their life when they have deprived someone else of theirs. So simple. Just. Complete. Final. ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited June 11, 2001).]
Great post. Our society has now sent the message that human life has a price. Thomas Paine said that "government is a necessary evil" and "the government that governs least governs best". Government is not God, and should not be bestowed with the powers of God. Should the same government that buys Air Force toilets for $600 be allowed to dictate who lives and who dies? Tim McVeigh died today, and he was guilty of his crimes, but how many innocent people were executed last year? Tim should be in a 6 x 6 cell right now, with no visitation, no TV, no books, no conversation, and no tools which he could use to kill himself. Tim should be locked up for the rest of his life with nothing to ponder but his conscience (which is a universal trait). ------------------ I hate rice and beans!
I know this: the death penalty deters me. So you're less likely to commit a crime because of the death penalty as opposed to spending the rest of your life locked in a jail cell with no chance of parole? I would guess that most people who have no problem risking the latter also have no problem risking the former. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
beto: Now THAT seems cruel and unusual... 6X6 forever. This all gets convoluded, but it was a citizen panel of jurors AND the governement machinery of trial by jury and the penal system which led to exection of McVeigh. shanna: I was just disproving the assertion that the Death Penalty has never proven to be a significant deterrant. Any compromise of my liberty deters me, of course, as it does all reasonable people. ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited June 11, 2001).]
I'm not talking about self-reported statistics. I'm thinking about cross-societal studies that I have seen regarding crime rates before and after punishments have been increased for various crimes (for example, increasing the penalty for drug offenders). Generally an increase in penalty is ineffective; however, an increase in certainty of being caught / punished does act as a deterrant. I get your argument on prevention of recidivism. Of course, a "true" life sentence would do the same thing assuming that escape was made impossible. Deterrance of others to me is a much more interesting issue. I'm like you - my conscience and own morality would prevent me from killing. The question is, what (if anything) can be done to prevent/deter those lacking such a moral center from committing horrible acts? Punishment for its own sake is fine I guess if that is your goal, but deterring future attacks to me is more important (recognizing that those such as McVeigh who actually want to be martyred for their "cause" might be impossible to deter). ------------------ Bingbong was set up, led to an untimely death in the prime of his life for no other reason than pure malice. Things like that do not go unavenged. Sometimes it spills out onto the field of play.
Any compromise of my liberty deters me, of course, as it does all reasonable people. I agree. I'm just not sure that the death penalty would deter someone any more than life-in-prison. It may very well do so -- I don't know what runs through the messed up mind of a murderer -- but I'd be just as horrified of life-in-prison as death. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
Did anybody else see that television special about the execution that was on about a month ago??? They showed the cell where McVeigh lived while waiting...he had a TV and talked about how he looked forward to watching the Simpsons everyday. He also was a big sports fan too...so of course he was able to catch the big games each weekend. This bothers me. Not exactly the picture of retribution for a man who blew up a building. Without the death penalty, he'd be waiting to watch his favorite TV programs today. I'm not saying it's a great life, but I'm betting there were some big sports fans who were killed as a result of McVeigh's actions who would certainly have liked to "catch the big game" but who can't. And I'm betting it took their families some time to gather the peace necessary to just relax in front of the TV without breaking down. I'm not concerned with how this deters other criminals. If you're willing to give up your life so that you can take another, fine...but rest assured, you will die by lethal injection...and certainly, that will be the last life you EVER take! What concerns me more is retribution. As Locke said, if you're willing to take from the liberties of others, those liberties will be taken from you. I'm not proud of the sense of satisfaction that I have that Timothy McVeigh is no longer drawing a breath on this planet...but those feelings exist, nevertheless. If that makes me as big a monster as him, so be it. You kill someone I love, and you will die. That's justice, plain and simple. Beto -- while I normally would agree with a less govt is best govt approach...I don't see this the same way you do. He was convicted by a jury of his peers. He was unmistakeably guilty. Poll after poll indicate that Americans support the death penalty as a punishment for murder. Leave it to the people to dispense judgment in this matter (take it out of the judge's or the court's hands) and you'd get the same result. The only difference is that McVeigh would have been unrecognizable when it came time to bury him. Less govt in this scenario does not lead you to a different conclusion. I'm all for the protections of the Constitution and all the due process afforded the criminally convicted in our country. But a society has to be able to protect itself from those who would strip away the liberties of law-abiding citizens. This world is a better place with one less person who has no remorse for children which he killed. ------------------ [This message has been edited by MadMax (edited June 11, 2001).]
SamCassell: I'm not looking for people to punish; I don't enjoy it. However if someone commits a heinous crime I think it is our national responsibility to seek and render swift justice. That is the best deterrant. Swift and certain justice, which can include the Death Penalty, is the key. If people who commit a crime such as McVeigh's or the killers of James Byrd are not deterred by the Death Penalty, then they have GROSSLY inadequate respect for life-- even their own. In that case, we should have no guilty conscience about carrying out a death sentence on someone who doesn't respect life in the first place. It was their choice. ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils.
