Pacers and OKC are using 10-11 man rotation in playoffs

Yeah, They have a better coach.

DD

 

Pacers yes. Knicks no.

Knicks play 7 players. Payne only plays spot minutes. They have Coach Thibs. We wouldn't expect anything else!

Pacers play 8 players with Mathurin as the 9th guy. You can say they have an 8.5-man rotation.

BTW, OKC plays 7.5 guys with Wiggins as the 8th guy.

 

I think most Rockets fans wanted Ime to use more players during the Warriors series. Next to Jalen's performance, it was the most frustrating thing.

 

Would have used 12 if Topic was up to speed.

 

They have turned to occasional players when they use guys outside of a 9 man rotation....

Not using those as much because the Starting lineup plus Alex Caruso are mass murdering teams in spurts.

Jaylin Williams, Kenrich Williams.........to slow down Joker......

 

It is the best way to win, because your better players get rest.

Tom Thibedeau sucks....and Ime is trending that way.

DD

 

I also think we should have played our bench more minutes. There weren't enough Tari and Jabari minutes. Jabari especially was shooting really well. Ime made a mistake playing Adams more minutes than Jabari. It worked until it didn't.

One major issue is that we didn't have a capable backup PG built for the playoffs. FVV was playing really well and Ime just couldn't afford to put Holiday out there. I don't think Reed Sheppard is the answer. I'd like to trade Reed for Ty Jerome.

I also wanted to see some Cam minutes when Jalen was struggling. It would have been a great opportunity for a Whitmore redemption. Instead, Ime just let Jalen keep ******** the bed. Ime is a young coach and will improve in the future. Hopefully Jalen can **** the bed for a different team next season.

 

I don't think the Rockets have 10 or 11 NBA rotation players.


OKC might be the deepest team in the league. They've had several years of early lotto picks to stack that roster.

 

If you want to understand why this happened, it’s only because Udoka has a nostalgia for the 90’s. Plain and simple. There’s no tactical, strategic or historical reason to do it. It’s not based on our personnel. Ime hijacked our team to live out his childhood dream and that got a lot of support from people on the board who are yearning for the days of two teams scoring 180 points, midrange jumpers, post play and acting tough by shouting loud.

It was an idiotic decision. We were the younger, deeper, faster and more athletic team. We decided to get into a slow paced rebounding battle with them. We won the rebounding battle and went nowhere, very much like the Knicks against the Pacers. We told Jalen to generously pass out of double teams to create a 4 on 3 advantage only to end up having below average midrange shooters taking midrange jumpers. Wtf?

He chose a starting lineup he loved despite it being one of our worst rated starting lineups throughout the season. Wtf? Literally why would you go with a hunch when we have a tested starting lineup with a great net rating that sat 2nd in the west before injuries?

We needed shooting and he marginalized Jabari and Holliday. Sengun hit 37.5% of his 3’s yet Udoka kept pushing him (and Draymond) to park between Amen/Jalen and the rim. Not even in the post where Sengun has struggled his whole life against Draymond. In the midrange area where Sengun struggled against everyone all season.

When the HC makes himself the franchise player and the team is designed to suit his OCD and his preferences and his nostalgia, then it’s on him. He developed a starting lineup that got us into the #2 seed (Sengun/Bari/Brooks/Green/FVV) then because injury hit he permanently changed it to another starting lineup that always had to be saved by the bench. He developed something and sh@t in it voluntarily. For no discernible reason other than old man colloquialisms. He’s a young coach with the mind of a 68 year old coach it’s so weird.

This dude effectively went on the basketball equivalent of a binge drinking night with our franchise as the vehicle. Why? So he can prove to the world non-shooters have value. You know because he was a non-shooter his whole career.

Can’t expect him to take accountability but if he shows up again with these ideas next season, Stone will put him in hot seat. Since the Celtics days he throws his offensive players under the bus and that gets old. This is the first time he’s had the same team for more than a year. We’re the first team to see his patterns.

He still hasn’t gotten an extension this summer. You can tell me all the rumors and inside info you want but if he doesn’t get an extension this summer it means Stone is not impressed. This is the summer you would normally give an extension to that contract. The game is half defense and half offense. You can get an A+ on defense and still score only 50% on this test. So far his TS% is not better than Silas who had a far less talented offensive team. He better show up with better ideas next season, he’s too young to be stuck in these ones.

 

Tons of blame on ime for not using all his players. Theres situations and opponents where different guys could help.

Lots of complaints about Cam but when we are struggling to score why not put in a guy who is usually instant offense and energy?

Need spacing and some shooting? Try Holiday and/or Reed.

Even Tate has value of bringing instant hustle and toughness.

He'll play guys who clearly dont have it and lineups that clearly arent working.

 

Haha the Mavs gave Carlisle to the Pacers.

 

You make some interesting points.

I think his greatest sin in the series was not utilizing Jabari more. Playing Adams more minutes than Jabari is insane in retrospect. I realize it worked for a while. It's still really stupid.

Part of the blame lies with Stone though. We have two outstanding young two-way players- Amen and Sengun. Neither are competent outside shooters. We need to surround them with above-average shooters. Stone failed to make move at the deadline to bring in another worthy rotation player who can shoot. I don't think Rick Carlisle himself could make this roster into a good offensive team. We need a Jalen Green upgrade and another competent shooter on the bench. I have some hope that Amen's shooting will improve in time as well.

 

OKC might be one of the deepest teams in the league, also blowing out teams helps players get minutes there.

The Pacers play more true, but also were top 7 in bench points this year I believe and have a lot of depth as well.

The Pacers also have been to the ECF last year with playoff experience and their playoff core is around 2-3+ years older on average than ours I believe.

Boston for example played pretty much 8 players in rotation last year during the finals.

 

On the larger point, there's no chance that 2 non-shooters (none of whom are capable 25ppg+ scorers) and 3 above average shooters would do anything good on offense. There's no example of this happening in the last 20 years. Two non-shooters is avoided like the plague in the NBA. We can't now sit and bandaid a stupid idea. Next season Sengun and Amen are going to have to put up 3's like Jalen does, no more passing off on those shots.

Now on the playoffs, I need to rant:

You have to address the fact that we were not a very good shooting team and Ime Udoka voluntarily reduced our already shaky shooting. You blame Stone but just pause for one moment. We had like a bottom 10 shooting team. Udoka went like "I have a great idea, let's bench some shooters more often, that should help. I like rebounds more than 3pters." Can't blame that on Stone. There's no more trades. You have the shooters you have. Why bench them? Why actively worsen our shooting and spacing?

This is the team that initially got us to the #2 seed before injuries:

Sengun
Jabari - can shoot
Brooks - can shoot
Green - can shoot
FVV- can shoot

Why did we not stick to this lineup when everyone got healthy? If Amen is the superstar, then why not play Amen and 4 shooters?

Draymond clamped up Sengun in the post the whole season and the playoffs - we statistically knew this going into the playoffs. Sengun was mediocre from midrange in the regular season and playoffs. He was not going to win us this series from midrange. He should have been played more outside of the paint, he was the perfect excuse to get Draymond out of the paint. Draymond Green can't shoot for sh*t, how come Kerr can bring him out of the paint and let him operate from the top taking advantage of his passing skills? Sengun should have been our magnet for pulling Draymond out of the paint so that the paint would be SPACIOUS for Amen or Green to go downhill. If we did this they could have no given a **** about eurosteps and angled shots and footwork, they could have just gone full speed past their own man and an easy finish against a small and slow team. Would Draymond had sagged off Sengun? Sure but he would not be able to catch Amen anyway.

Amen scored 15.7 points on 12 shots while being guarded by one bad/mediocre defender who cheated off him often. AMEN IS BETTER THAN THAT. If you take Green out of the lineup you lose an excellent catch and shooter drawing double teams and suddenly Amen goes from being guarded by less than one mediocre defender to being guarded by 1.5 elite defenders. Just be logical, how is it fair to Amen to then expect him to DO BETTER? How come other coaches make things easier for their scorers while we just keep making things harder for them? When Sengun is in the paint along with Draymond getting in his way for no reason whatsoever, what are we doing? Then sometimes you also throw Steven Adams and Looney/Post in the paint too. Who on earth does this to their wing players unless the two guys you're putting in the paint are David Robinson and Tim Duncan or you have Hakeem Olajuwon and Ralph Sampson? Who the f*ck clogs their own paint with 21ppg Sengun and Steven Adams?

What we needed was to stagger Sengun and Amen, and then give each of those two 4 shooters around them. Steven Adams did his job perfectly well but he was never needed. This team never needed more rebounds. It certainly did not need to sacrifice shooting for rebounds. Here are the two lineups we should have been running most of the game:

1st unit the tried and tested unit:

Sengun (only non-shooter)
Bari
Brooks
Green (as a catch and shooter only)
FVV

2nd unit the team that can run you out the gym with passable spacing too:

Jabari
Amen (only non-shooter)
Tari
Green (transition + PnR with Amen)
Holiday

Amen would have easily kept or exceeded his 15ppg+. Sengun would have had 4 shooters around him. When Jalen Green would pass out of the blitz, we would have gotten a better shot than a f*cking midrange shot for Adams, Amen or Sengun.

Sorry I'm not swearing at you, I'm just swearing because re-telling the story is giving me micro PTSD. I can't believe we pissed away a playoff series just for Ime to act like it's all about him. He didn't give a **** about his personnel, he just played whoever he personally liked the most minutes. That's all that happened. All this strategy BS was made up narrative to justify his "instincts". Well his instincts were wrong. As you said we needed more Jabari, more Holiday, more Sengun taking Draymond outside the paint, more shots for Brooks, LESS clogged paint, more pace, extended minutes for the bench.

Alright I need to stop now this is ruining my day.

 

Yeah I mentioned that before the playoffs.

Ime has old school thinking of reducing rosters when he should rotate constant
fresh bodies to wear down the opposition.

I said Holiday and Jeff Green would be the difference in the series, Kerr used or
was willing to use Looney and Kuminga while Udoka would not use Holiday
and Uncle Jeff enough. They may be older but they can still play....and they
pose more of a threat from three. Or at least give the appearance of a threat.

Sometimes you have to use dead bodies of soldiers propped up to give the
illusion of greater forces. Draw the attention of the enemy from areas
that are thinner.

Season is an 82 game marathon followed by another marathon in the form of the
Playoffs nowadays. Adjust accordingly Ime Udoka.

 

I’ve always believed that a 9-10 man playoff rotation makes sense. Why? Because besides the extra rest for your starters, players on the bench get hot and rise to the occasion. Of course this assumes you have a deep team. If u have scrubs it’s a terrible strategy. But if you are deep, use your depth advantage.

Btw the ime hate really sucks around here. Lots of irrational takes.

 

When Jabari went out with the injury, it became clear that Amen is the most talented player on the roster. Regardless of fit, I understand why Ime felt like he had to start the most talented player on the roster. Amen is the answer to Ime's prayers. When God gives you exactly what you want, you have to adjust your starting lineup. Playing Adams more minutes than Jabari though was really senseless.

I believe there have been other successful teams that had multiple below average 3-point shooters. The Heat made the finals a few years ago with Bam and Jimmy Butler as their top 2 players. It's not common but I believe it's possible. I would still like to have more shooting on the roster.

I have a lot of hope that Amen can continue to improve his distance shooting. He hit 37.7% from the corner 3 last season. His mid-range percentages also improved. That's not nothing. If Lebron James can become an elite 3-point shooter, I don't see why Amen can't. I think Amen can become a top-5 player in the NBA. I think we need to figure out how to make the Sengun and Amen lineups work because those are our two cornerstones.

My hope is that we'll play Jabari more at the 5 next season where he should get of lot of open looks. I think staggering Amen and Alpi a lot makes sense. Upgrading Jalen for a more finished product on the wing is the most important step for this summer though. Jalen still has a lot of potential but our team is already too good to waste another season hoping Jalen figures it all out. Either Devin Booker or Tyler Herro would solve a lot of our problems.

If we can't upgrade Jalen, I hope we'll have a shot at Ty Jerome. He'd be an amazing fit as the 3rd guard on this roster.

I understand your frustration with Ime. He has some concerning limitations as an offensive coach. Hopefully, he improves with experience and hopefully he'll hire a proven assistant coach to help run the offense. Mike Brown would work just fine.