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2004: OMG! Bush has turned the whole world against us! 2012: Who cares about them.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Hightop, Jun 13, 2012.

  1. Hightop

    Hightop Member

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    The hypocrisy from the disgusting and pathetic Left is immeasurable.

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    U.S. drones deeply unpopular around the world

    Animus toward American aggression is widespread and sustained in the Muslim world

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    <p>Last night I <a href="http://www.salon.com/2012/06/12/what_might_cause_another_911/singleton/">wrote about</a> how Obama’s drone attacks and other forms of militarism in the Muslim world are making another Terror attack on U.S. soil more likely, while my <em>Salon </em>colleague Jefferson Morley <a href="http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2012/06/13/survey_us_drone_program_unpopular_overseas/">documented</a> the mass political instability those policies are spawning. A newly released international <a href="http://www.pewglobal.org/2012/06/13/global-opinion-of-obama-slips-international-policies-faulted/">polling survey</a> from the Pew Research Center sharply underscores both points.</p>
    <p>The new multi-nation poll finds that “in predominantly Muslim nations, American anti-terrorism efforts are still <strong>widely unpopular</strong>.” Beyond Muslim nations, “in <strong>nearly all countries, there is considerable opposition</strong> to a major component of the Obama administration’s anti-terrorism policy: drone strikes.” Specifically, “in 17 of 20 countries, more than half disapprove of U.S. drone attacks.” As usual, “<strong>Americans are the clear outliers </strong>on this issue – 62% approve of the drone campaign, including most Republicans (74%), independents (60%) and Democrats (58%).” But in every other surveyed country besides India (which naturally supports any attacks in Pakistan), more people disapprove of Obama’s drone strikes than approve, usually by very wide margins. Indeed, “the policy is unpopular in majority Muslim nations, but also in Europe and other regions as well”; specifically, “at least<strong> three-in-four [are opposed] in a diverse set of countries</strong>: Greece (90%), Egypt (89%), Jordan (85%), Turkey (81%), Spain (76%), Brazil (76%) and Japan (75%).”</p>
    <p><a style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;" href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-h3uoXuvBt4s/T9h_lHQx8hI/AAAAAAAABDY/R4bBJ4mWTsE/s1600/pew.png"><img src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-h3uoXuvBt4s/T9h_lHQx8hI/AAAAAAAABDY/R4bBJ4mWTsE/s640/pew.png" alt="" width="395" height="640" border="0" /></a></p>
    <p>Just as is <a href="http://www.salon.com/2012/06/10/obama_defender_rep_peter_king/">true in the U.S.</a>, Obama — revealingly and unsurprisingly — finds ample support for his policies among the European Right, with substantial opposition on the Left. “A majority (56%) of those who describe themselves as being on the political right in Britain favor U.S. drone strikes against extremists, but just 31% on the left agree.” And “a similar gap emerges in France, where about half of those on the right (49%) approve of the drone attacks, compared with about one-quarter (26%) among people on the left. Double-digit differences are also found in Italy, the Czech Republic and Germany.”</p>
    <p>It’s an article of faith in many progressive circles that Obama has “restored America’s standing in the world” — they’ll just state it as though it’s gospel — but it’s patently untrue. While it’s true that Europeans and citizens of long-standing American allies such as Japan and Brazil generally view Obama far more favorably than they did George Bush (though far less so than was true in 2009), and the U.S. continues to be viewed favorably in the West, the perception of the U.S. in the Muslim world is as bad as, or even worse than, the lowly levels of the Bush era:</p>
    <blockquote><p>In a number of strategically important Muslim nations, <strong>America’s image has not improved during the Obama presidency</strong>. In fact, America’s already low 2008 ratings have slipped even further in Jordan and Pakistan. . . .</p>
    <p>There is little support for Obama, however, in the predominantly Muslim nations surveyed. Fewer than three-in-ten express confidence in him in Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey and Jordan. And roughly a year after he ordered the Abbottabad raid that killed Osama bin Laden, just 7% of Pakistanis have a positive view of Obama, the same percentage that voiced confidence in President George W. Bush during the final year of his administration. . . .</p>
    <p><strong>In nearly every country where trends are available, support for Obama’s international policies has declined over the last three years</strong>. . . . . The U.S. receives many of its lowest ratings in predominantly Muslim nations. Among Muslim nations, the median has slipped from 34% to 15%. . . . Fewer than one-in-five have a positive opinion about America in Egypt (19%), Turkey (15%), Pakistan (12%) and Jordan (12%)</p></blockquote>
    <p>This is all consistent with <a href="http://www.salon.com/2010/08/05/muslims_3/">numerous</a> <a href="http://www.salon.com/2011/07/13/arabs/">other</a> <a href="http://www.salon.com/2011/04/26/egypt_12/">international polls</a> <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/arab-worlds-views-of-us-president-obama-increasingly-negative-new-poll-finds/2011/07/12/gIQASzHVBI_blog.html">showing</a> the U.S. under Obama as being deeply unpopular in the Muslim world generally and specifically in the region’s most strategically significant nations <a href="http://www.salon.com/2011/04/26/egypt_12/">such as Egypt</a>; not only has there been little improvement since the Bush era (with very few exceptions), in some cases the U.S. is mildly more unpopular now in that region. Notably, China is <a href="http://www.pewglobal.org/2012/06/13/chapter-4-rating-countries-and-institutions/">vastly more popular</a> than the U.S. in the Muslim world.</p>
    <p>This isn’t the by-product of some sort of reflexive, irrational anti-Americanism. In fact, there is <a href="http://www.pewglobal.org/2012/06/13/chapter-2-attitudes-toward-american-culture-and-ideas/">substantial favorability</a> toward American cultural influences and political ideals, including in the Muslim world (especially among younger Muslims). The cause of this anger is clear and rational; as even a <a href="http://www.salon.com/2009/10/20/terrorism_6/">Rumsfeld-commissioned 2004 study</a> explained: “Muslims do not ‘hate our freedoms’, but rather they hate our policies.”</p>
    <p>Fortunately, caring about international opinion — like so many other things — is so very 2004, especially in Democratic Party circles (notwithstanding the fact that, as that Rumsfeld-era report documented, anti-American animus arising from American aggression is the greatest security threat and the prime source of Terrorism). Who cares if virtually the entire world views Obama’s drone attacks as unjustified and wrong? Who cares if the Muslim world continues to seethe with anti-American animus as a result of this aggression? Empires do what they want. Despite all this, these polling data will undoubtedly prompt that age-old American question: <em>why do they hate us</em>?</p>
     
  2. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    The only drone I see, Hightop, is you droning incessantly about drones.
     
  3. BetterThanEver

    BetterThanEver Contributing Member

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    Hightop,

    Of course, terrorists and their civilian famiies and friends would have low approval of attacks by Western infidels against holy Jihadists. I would bet a survey of Americans and the Western world would have similiar disapproval rates for Al Qaeda 9/11 kamikaze attacks and suicide bombings against Americans.
     
    #3 BetterThanEver, Jun 13, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
  4. Raven

    Raven Member

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    Actually, many leading progressives have been highly critical of Obama on a wide range of issues , including drone trikes.
     
  5. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    There's nothing the world wants to see more than for Romney to become president and reinstitute neocon foreign policy - this is certain.
     
  6. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    Won't stop the droning trikes from voting for obama, correct?
     
  7. bmb4516

    bmb4516 Member

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    I wish our resident libs would just come out and be honest. You all were never actually opposed to the wars, you were just opposed to Bush.

    If you guys would just come out and admit it, Hightop would probably start fewer threads about the left's blatant hypocrisy on all things war related.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    I personally find it more hilarious that certain members of this board who openly cheered the Patriot Act, and extrajudicial applications of the War on Terror, now have common ground with "Hightop". It's curious, really, that in his multitude of threads, he hasn't started the obvious one; why, other than the f**king obvious reason that these people nut-hug everything bad about Obama, would you be in agreement with him, ex Bush-admin diehards?
     
  9. Joshfast

    Joshfast "We're all gonna die" - Billy Sole
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    not as good as Deckard's I expect better from you :mad:
     
  10. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    Hightop, I hope you can get a grip on your anger in relation to our president and those with whom you perceive as antagonists. (Despite their agreement with you on most social issues.) The cognitive dissonance you experience must be a torment. I'm not the only one who has noticed a real Travis Bickle vibe from you these days.
     
  11. Classic

    Classic Member

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    NDAA
    SOPA/Pipa
    Domestic drones
    Expansion of TSA
    Fast & Furious
    Warrantless wiretapping
    Bradley Manning
    Reupping Patriot Act

    It would appear the neocons are highly infatuated with domestic policy these last 4 years.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    I wish you wouldn't be so butthurt about what you think libs should come out on and give credit where it's due for policies you agree with.

    Do libs dominate your thoughts, or is it fat men behind microphones?
     
  13. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    One more time - there's nothing the rest of the world wants to see more than Romney and the neocons take over foreign policy again
     
  14. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    So if Obama remains president there will not be a neocon foreign policy?
     
  15. Big MAK

    Big MAK Member

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    We obviously don't care what the rest of the world thinks... It's not this current president, we've always done what we please.
     
  16. HorryForThree

    HorryForThree Member

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    I find this line of argument coming from the GOP to be highly disingenuous- as much as liberals may be guilty of hypocritical perspectives, is not the opposite true as well? What is it that conservatives hate so much about Obama? He's deregulated gun laws, deregulated environmental restrictions, cut more taxes than bush in his first term, adopted and executed a neocon foreign policy, retroactively immunized Bush's administration for any illegalities they've done (ie torture, warantless wiretapping, etc.), protected corporate interests time and again, and held many Bush appointees in his own cabinet (Geithner, Gates for a while, etc.).
     
  17. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Basically what you're saying is that John Bolton = Susan Rice.

    Please slap the stupid out of yourself before posting again.
     
  18. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    [​IMG]
     
  19. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    So it would be neocon foreign policy if it was Romney, but it's not under Obama? I suppose you said this about Bush II as well?

    Surely, there must be some form of at least semi-tangible evidence for this.

    According to virtually all independent surveys of Middle Eastern PEOPLE, the dissaproval from the Middle Eastern countries has been going on since the 40's and 50's steadily, with slight changes depending on whether there is a Republican or Democract in office. Surely, if there was a shift from non-neo con to neocon, there would be dramatic shifts in Middle Eastern sentiment as well. Things are getting worse though, and the sentiments are getting worse. Even internally, rapes, suicide and depression are higher than expected.

    From this information, it looks like you're overblowing the difference between Romney and Obama far more than I'm underestimating the difference between them.
     
  20. Hightop

    Hightop Member

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    The fruitcake Obama Cult cares more about Dear Leader than anything:

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    How Drones Help Al Qaeda

    By IBRAHIM MOTHANA
    Published: June 13, 2012

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/14/opinion/how-drones-help-al-qaeda.html?_r=2

    “DEAR OBAMA, when a U.S. drone missile kills a child in Yemen, the father will go to war with you, guaranteed. Nothing to do with Al Qaeda,” a Yemeni lawyer warned on Twitter last month. President Obama should keep this message in mind before ordering more drone strikes like Wednesday’s, which local officials say killed 27 people, or the May 15 strike that killed at least eight Yemeni civilians.

    Drone strikes are causing more and more Yemenis to hate America and join radical militants; they are not driven by ideology but rather by a sense of revenge and despair. Robert Grenier, the former head of the C.I.A.’s counterterrorism center, has warned that the American drone program in Yemen risks turning the country into a safe haven for Al Qaeda like the tribal areas of Pakistan — “the Arabian equivalent of Waziristan.”

    Anti-Americanism is far less prevalent in Yemen than in Pakistan. But rather than winning the hearts and minds of Yemeni civilians, America is alienating them by killing their relatives and friends. Indeed, the drone program is leading to the Talibanization of vast tribal areas and the radicalization of people who could otherwise be America’s allies in the fight against terrorism in Yemen.

    The first known drone strike in Yemen to be authorized by Mr. Obama, in late 2009, left 14 women and 21 children dead in the southern town of al-Majala, according to a parliamentary report. Only one of the dozens killed was identified as having strong Qaeda connections.

    Misleading intelligence has also led to disastrous strikes with major political and economic consequences. An American drone strike in May 2010 killed Jabir al-Shabwani, a prominent sheik and the deputy governor of Marib Province. The strike had dire repercussions for Yemen’s economy. The slain sheik’s tribe attacked the country’s main pipeline in revenge. With 70 percent of the country’s budget dependent on oil exports, Yemen lost over $1 billion. This strike also erased years of progress and trust-building with tribes who considered it a betrayal given their role in fighting Al Qaeda in their areas.

    Yemeni tribes are generally quite pragmatic and are by no means a default option for radical religious groups seeking a safe haven. However, the increasing civilian toll of drone strikes is turning the apathy of tribal factions into anger.

    The strikes have created an opportunity for terrorist groups like Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and Ansar al-Sharia to recruit fighters from tribes who have suffered casualties, especially in Yemen’s south, where mounting grievances since the 1994 civil war have driven a strong secessionist movement.

    Unlike Al Qaeda in Iraq, A.Q.A.P. has worked on gaining the support of local communities by compromising on some of their strict religious laws and offering basic services, electricity and gas to villagers in the areas they control. Furthermore, Iran has seized this chance to gain more influence among the disgruntled population in Yemen’s south.

    And the situation is quite likely to get worse now that Washington has broadened its rules of engagement to allow so-called signature strikes, when surveillance data suggest a terrorist leader may be nearby but the identities of all others targeted is not known. Such loose rules risk redefining “militants” as any military-age males seen in a strike zone.

    Certainly, there may be short-term military gains from killing militant leaders in these strikes, but they are minuscule compared with the long-term damage the drone program is causing. A new generation of leaders is spontaneously emerging in furious retaliation to attacks on their territories and tribes.

    This is why A.Q.A.P. is much stronger in Yemen today than it was a few years ago. In 2009, A.Q.A.P. had only a few hundred members and controlled no territory; today it has, along with Ansar al-Sharia, at least 1,000 members and controls substantial amounts of territory.

    Yemenis are the ones who suffer the most from the presence of Al Qaeda, and getting rid of this plague is a priority for the majority of Yemen’s population. But there is no shortcut in dealing with it. Overlooking the real drivers of extremism and focusing solely on tackling their security symptoms with brutal force will make the situation worse.

    Only a long-term approach based on building relations with local communities, dealing with the economic and social drivers of extremism, and cooperating with tribes and Yemen’s army will eradicate the threat of Islamic radicalism.

    Unfortunately, liberal voices in the United States are largely ignoring, if not condoning, civilian deaths and extrajudicial killings in Yemen — including the assassination of three American citizens in September 2011, including a 16-year-old. During George W. Bush’s presidency, the rage would have been tremendous. But today there is little outcry, even though what is happening is in many ways an escalation of Mr. Bush’s policies.

    Defenders of human rights must speak out. America’s counterterrorism policy here is not only making Yemen less safe by strengthening support for A.Q.A.P., but it could also ultimately endanger the United States and the entire world.

    Ibrahim Mothana, a writer and activist, is a co-founder of the Watan Party.
     

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