LMAO!!!! Funniest show ever! I guess droxford must really despise women in shorts and tank tops. The floozy jezebells!
Exactly. I can't tell you how many good looking girls I see on campus at MTSU when I go to my night classes that wear long-sleeved shirts (I wouldn't say that they were blouses) with jeans that are tight as they can be with these funky heels (can hear them from a mile away and the heel, invariably, is skinny as it can be - not a great big chunky one). I mean every time I see (or hear) one of these girls walk by, I absolutely drool and then kick myself for getting old and having to get a job instead of being someone who would take 7 or more years to get my college degree. Because if I took that long, at least I could see these women all freaking day long instead of just 2 nights a week when most of them are leaving the campus. Also, seeing a nice-looking woman in a pants suit is right up there with seeing these hot-looking, tight jean wearing girls that I see at MTSU. I have always said that women have the advantage on clothes because they can wear about ANYTHING and still look damn good.
"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman....No biological, psychological or economic fate determines the figure that human female presents in society. It is civilization as a whole that produces this creature, intermediate between male and eunuch, which is described as feminine. Only the intervention of someone else can establish an individual as Other....in all known societies, woman has always been looked upon as the other” - Simone de Beauvoir, The Second Sex, 1953.
I love that quote! Another one I like: "I know I'm not a man -- about that much I'm very clear, and I've come to the conclusion that I'm probably not a woman either, at least not according to a lot of people's rules on this sort of thing. The trouble is, we're living in a world that insists we be one or the other -- a world that doesn't bother to tell us exactly what one or the other is. " - Kate Bornstein, <i>Gender Outlaw: On Men, Women, and the Rest of Us</i>, 1995 (In fact I think your quote is in Kate's book. )
It's not even that. If there were new fashions for men/women that made obvious statements as to their gender, that'd be fine. It's the blurring of the lines that bothers me. I'm not saying women should dig up corsets and clothing from yesteryear. Modern clothing would be fine if it would just make a clearer gender statement. I guess a skirt/dress. doesn't have to be fancy. Just a normal skirt/dress. And I only say that because a skirt is something that clearly identifies someone as female (yes, I'm sure there are few exceptions, but generally that's true). And I would think that a woman would find a skirt/dress more comfy than pants. yup. And jeans with oil are great to wear when you're working on the car. flooziness isn't what bothers me. At least a female who's dressed as a "floozy" is more clear on what gender she is. an interesting vision. Does this mean that women now favor androgeny because that's what men want? Perhaps having more bisexual and homosexual males in society has prompted women to dress this way? or is that the cart leading the horse?...hmmm... Sounds to me like Kate Bornstein is a really confused person. I guess my feeling are: I'm a man. Nature has made me a man. In body, mind and soul, I am a man. I feel like a man. I act like a man. Because I am one. Because any other way would be contrary to how I feel, and who I am. The confusion for me comes when I see so many men and women who aren't as sure of themselves as I am. I'm also surprised that not one person has stated that they understand and agree with my feelings. I'm surprised that my feelings are so unique. -- droxford
Actually, quite the opposite. The point of her statement wasn't to say she didn't know if she was a man or women, but that the very concepts of man/woman are oppressive social constructions that placed limits on what bodies mean and how people can act and that she felt she could not be constrained in such a way. The problem I have is with things like "act like a man" or "dress like a woman." What does all of that mean? How does anyone know what it means to "act like a man?" Who decided this? What is a man anyways? How is it that we are (or become) men and women? Is it possible to be neither a man or a women? Ultimately, all of this smacks of class, power play, oppression, biological determinism, and enforced roles. I think it's wonderful that you feel a certain way, act a certain way, and are happy with that. But I don't like being told that because I have X body parts, that I must be Y, and act/dress like Z. Who is so interested in my body that it becomes necessary to mark it with culturally defined baggage so that everyone won't mistake me for the something else? And what about intersexed people? Transexually/transgender/gender queer people? How are they supposed to dress? I guess my point of view is an appreciation for the diversity of the human race and the freedom to express ourselves, define ourselves, and act in the many fluid and ever changing ways that we can. To prescribe to the idea that you are either a man or woman who dresses/acts/believes/feels/etc certain ways is foreign and overly reductionist and limiting to the variety that occurs naturally with our bodies/actions/beliefs/etc. But I guess I can see that this would be foreign and chaotic to you. And I can understand how that would be puzzling and even discomforting to you. *shrugs* Ultimately, I guess I really don't understand the need to neatly divide people in such a way.
this may be a bit off topic, but i've noticed most lesbians can get away with "crossdressing" and dressing butch while most gay guys who would like to be really feminine can't get away with it without suffering major discrimination. people don't really think much when you see a really butch girl, but if you see a really flaming guy wearing makeup and a mid rift and whatever trying to look all feminine then you are like a little caught off guard. it's more accepted for women to be tomboys than it is for guys to be girly.
droxford, I can understand, generally, that you don't care for androgyny but I'm not sure the insistence on girls wearing skirts makes that much sense. For one thing, there are a lot of activities for which skirts are just not practical. I work in the kitchen, and while it is entirely possible to cook in a skirt or dress it is against the dress code in every kitchen I've ever worked in for some good reasons. You need to wear something long enough to protect your legs, something that allows a great deal of movement and something that won't get accidentally caught in the oven door: pants. For another thing, the clothing that identifies a person as male or female is largely determined by their culture. For thousands of years men wore something that would loosely resemble a simple belted dress. And as I previously pointed out, men can still be seen wearing kilts on occasion. For the most part, women's clothing is still designed specifically for women and men's clothing is designed for men. Even in jeans. There are some jeans that could go either way but they can go either way because they really don't fit the same on a curvy woman as they do on a man. You keep complaining that the clothing is androgynous but this ignores the possibility, and reality, of pants being designed in such a way as to be unmistakably feminine. It seems that what you really want to argue is not that people look androgynous - to such an extent that you can't tell the difference - but that our entire culture and tastes should be changed so that everyone finds dresses to be the only clothing flattering on a woman. That seems like a slippery slope. I think most people look pretty good in black but I don't think I want to insist that everyone only be permitted to wear black.
Tell that to my wife when it's -20 wind chill. Does your wife dress like you would like all women to dress?
eagerly awaits droxford telling Mrs. Valdez that women should wear aprons over their skirts and dresses when cooking
drox....do you not think it can be really sexy when a woman wears a tight pair of jeans? or is that still manly to you?
I think this largely has to do with that in our society it is seen as being a boy is better than being a girl. I don't think it's that butch women are accepted in our society as that they aren't looked down upon as much. I guess the reasoning is that its understandable to want to be a boy (or masculine or whatever), but a guy acting or wanting to be girly is seen as a horrible offense to maleness.
Just wanted to say I agree with droxford, but am hearing some compelling arguments. I think pants are ok. But not always. For example, they ar enecessary in the kitchen, so in that case it's fine. But women should look like women as often as possible. I always wondered how people feel about guys plucking their eyebows? Do girls hate that or encourage that? I'm talking about someone with really thick eyebrows, and it really ruins his appearance. I would never do it, and thank God I don't need to. But is it ok or not with the ladies?
