Controversy erupts after undocumented immigrant waves Mexican flag at graduation

Why wouldn't they? I can't speak for everyone, but I don't begrudge people who spend less money or get something for free when it is a worse product. Make no mistake, having no status is certainly inferior to a green card. But even if it wasn't, I don't begrudge people who get the same product as me at a lower cost or with less wait. I don't even begrudge people who get better things than me with less blood and treasure.

To give some actual concrete immigration examples. Why should a Chinese EB5 investor who has shelled out 1,000,000,000 dollars and waited 3 years for everything to line up begrudge a Russian EB5 investor who only invested 500,000 in a targeted employment area who waited 2 years to get status? And why should that Russian begrudge the spouse of a United States citizen who spent 3,000 in total and then managed to get into the United States in 1 year based on consular processing as an immediate relative? And why should that person begrudge the fiance of a United States Citizen who got a visa to enter the U.S. in 6 months who later married and adjusted status as an immediate relative 1 year later paying only 2,000 dollars total? And why should that person begrudge a Cuban who entered illegally through our southern border, received Cuban parole when he was apprehended by CBP, and then adjusted status 1 year later using a fee waiver? And why should that Cuban begrudge a Honduran who entered the country illegally, who was then the victim of a violent crime, who cooperated with police and received police certification which allowed them to apply for a U-visa with a fee-waiver and receive a U-visa conditional approval within 1.5 years?

And why would any of these people be against people like me who have had the fortune of being born in the United States or the person who came in illegally at age 2 who is just still here living life?

I don't buy it. Why would these people who spent a bunch of money and time care that there are other people who have different situations from them. Seems unreasonably base and petty. I could see these people being against illegal immigration for a bunch of other reasons, but people being against it because they feel "insulted" by others who got here by different means is not a very good reason at all.

 

Our founding fathers disagreed with you when they created this nation. Thoreau and other abolitionists disagreed with you when they did not abide by fugitive slave laws and helped slaves escape and avoid return to the South. MLK disagreed with you when sitting in Birmingham Jail he wrote:

Our immigration laws run the gamut. Some should be obeyed because they are just while others should be disobeyed and disrespected because they are unjust, rotted, and broken. Any law which would force an individual who came to this country at 2 years old who has spent their entire life in this country to return to a country they don't know is an unjust law. It should and must be changed. And until such time as it is changed such an unjust law shouldn't be respected.

 

Let's not forget that many illegals went through a lot more hardship (dangerous crossings, getting ripped off by coyotes, etc..) than most legal immigrants. I'm guessing a typical Guatamalan who got here trip was probably several times harder than what my parents went through to get here. While my parents worked hard to get me a good life I'm willing to guess that Esparza's parents worked harder.

 

Technically I am an anchor baby as I was born here while my parents were on an education visa and not permanent residences. They gained their permanent residency and citizenship later but I don't begrudge Esparza at all for what she did. As I said her family very likely went through much more hardship than mine did if struggle and hardship is the measuring stick of who belongs here. As far as fealty to the law I guess then you've never broken the law even jaywalking and if you did are willing to turn yourself in to accept punishment.

One more thing though about this issue. I'm presuming by your moniker that you are Asian. If you are also Chinese you might not know that the laws now that are used to limit immigration from Latin America very similar laws were once used to block Chinese from coming and for 50 years to almost completely shut down immigration from China. I'm guessing you've never heard of the term Paper son. During the roughly 50 years of the Exclusion Acts the only way most Chinese could come to this country was illegally. Chinese who were here already could bring in close family members but that was it. It didn't matter if you were smart had good skills or were a hard worker or not. That led the practice of Paper Sons, where Chinese here would help, or in some cases sell, information about themselves to young Chinese so they could pretend to be family to get into this country.

That is why I don't begrudge Esparza and those like her. It wasn't that long ago that for people like you and me we would've been the ones who were illegal.

 

Who better to judge what American laws are just than the 20 million Mexican nationals squatting on US territory and the phalanx of people dedicated to helping them evade immigration law. Sounds legit. I would imagine anyone who wants to immigrate to the United States or anyone who currently profits from allowing millions of undocumented people into this country would favor the most lax laws possible.

You just compared the fugitive slave law with the sovereignty of nations to decide who can and can't enter and live in their countries? Jesus. You have a basic human right to be free of bondage, you don't have the basic human right to live wherever you want whenever you want.

You went right past the slippery slope down a funnel of absurdity.

 

Elaborate on why you think the analogy is bad to help me understand where I went wrong.

I don't think they should have the same immediate benefits as a United States Citizen, but they should sure as hell have a guaranteed pathway to legal status and then citizenship once they are eligible. They should be able to do this while in this country. They should have a way to get legal status in this country just like the host of others that do. Just like the Cuban who touches land and the Chinese scion who invests jointly in the building of an apartment complex in Midtown. As often as people who chosen to migrate to the United States, they have made this country better. And we who are already here have made ourselves better for accepting them.

 

Just a point of order: we all, every single one of us, benefit from the labor that they provide.

 

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand where you are going with this or what you are meaning to say.

I would imagine that anyone who feels themselves to be superior to another human being because they did something "the correct, legal way" and regularly exclaims their superiority would have an incentive to not want the laws changed. If you feel like your essence would somehow be diminished if people who had previously entered the country illegally were to be given a "correct, legal way," do not worry. I swear, and I believe that I speak for others, and say that if that day happens, I will not think less of you and you should not think anything less of your or your family's accomplishments.

I did compare it. Please tell me how it is absurd. Both situations are examples where the law has impinged on fundamental human rights. The laws which do not treat like alike and allow for adjustment of status for individuals who entered illegally which allow for those who entered and overstayed tourist visas to adjust are unjust. Unlawful presence bars and the permanent bar are also unjust especially as the operate in tandem with the above laws. Not allowing a United States citizen kid to petition for their parent until they turn 21 is unjust. And the laws that work to separate families or deport a child who fears return to their country of origin are unjust. Laws that allow children born out of wedlock to Citizen mothers to acquire citizenship in a more expansive manner while denying the same rights to U.S. citizen fathers are unjust. Some of these laws have existed for years, while others are recent creations. All violate fundamental human rights.

 

Wait, so she isn't a criminal but you said she was and should be deported because she can't get legal status just a few post ago. Make up your mind.

 

Agreed.

A pathway? Yes. A GUARANTEED pathway? Hmm, don't like that wording. Everything in life has string or two attached. But assuming they've met all the requirements and followed the procedure properly, okay.

Nope. You don't get to enjoy the benefits of living in the USA, and live off of the fat of our land (so to speak) until you've crossed the T's and dotted the I's. Documentation is a requirement for residency, period.

They DO have a way. They just don't like it. Because it's long and difficult. But it's long and difficult for a reason: anything else is an open door to Mexico, which would hurt both countries.

Yeah, okay. So... no borders, then? Just let everybody in? No one is saying immigration is bad (at least not in this thread...so far), but there have to be rules and they have to be followed.

And nowhere, in anything you've said or shown, have you addressed the REAL problem: Mexican citizens leaving their country by the millions.THAT is where the works needs to be focused. Not on changing our country, but fixing their own. Until that is addressed, no immigration reform in the world will be enough to fix this issue.

 

Brits didn't have to enfranchise millions of ex-slaves without pissing off other non-voters five seconds after the bloodiest war in history. They also didn't carve their country out of territories run by ethnic groups that were "anchored" here for centuries prior to that.

 

Since they changed their citizenship rule relatively recently, their society was largely similar to the modern US when it was changed. We could change ours now as well.

 

While I agree that the root cause is the lack of economic and social opportunity in their parents' home country ... the idea that they "live off the fat of 'our' land" when they get here is flawed:

 

Sure pathway to legal status while being in this country. Pay the fees and reasonable penalties if we want to tack those on. We could do a 1,000 penalty like we did with 245(i).

Then give them a way to get temporary status as they await processing of their requests. Could be something like Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, TPS, or Deferred Actions for Parents of Americans and Lawful Permanent Residents. There is no reason to disrupt their family many of whom are United States Citizens or have some sort of other status in this country and there is no reason to stop them from giving to their community as they have been doing just to be gleefully punitive to the individual applicant. We have a history of allowing people to enjoy the benefits of living in the United States while waiting for a green card. We do so for Cubans, we do so for Asylees, we do so for U-Visa, T-Visa victims of of human trafficking, Fiance Visas, we do it for people coming in under Tourist Visas while awaiting the processing of their family petition.

Many people do not have a way to get a green card or even any status at all. If you are living here with your husband who is a Honduran man who has TPS for the last 8 years and you have two United States children who are 3 years old and 5 years old there is a strong chance you have no way of getting legal status. Other individuals have a way to get status, but it is a Sophie's choice that we should not require them to make. If you are a El Salvadoran man married to a United States Citizen wife and have a disabled Citizen child and you entered the country in 1998 when you were 3 years old, returned to your country when you were 19 and then re-entered this country illegally due to threats on your life due to extortion from maras who killed your brother because you didn't pay up and you have been here ever since, to get a green card you would have to leave the United States for a period of 10 years and wait in El Salvador. Only after those 10 years elapse could you could apply for readmission which may or may not be granted.

More ways for people to come here legally, more visas available and more ability to reapportion visas between countries with historically high demand for visas. Bring back adjustment of status for individuals who entered this country illegally so that they are treated no differently from individuals who entered on tourist visas and overstayed. Do away with unlawful presence bars. There are a lot of positive changes that we can make. I'm saying that the rules are a mixed bag. Some are fine, some need to be changed and some are patently unjust.

The trend on undocumented migrant flows seems to be pulling away from Mexico as year by year a greater proportion of undocumented arriving are Central Americans, Asians, Carribean islanders, Middle easterners, and Africans. There is no indication that there is the political will or know how to make the necessary sacrifices to affect change in Mexico nor is there any indication that we have the political will necessary or the know how we could fix all these other areas. The debacle of Iraq has shown that we don't have any clue in the world about how to go about nation building.

I disagree with you that we should not change our country. We should always be changing our country for the better, and we should always strive to align our laws with what is just. I also think that is a touch arrogant and naive to think that we will "fix the issue" when no country at any point of time in history except for the most brutal regimes have come close to stopping people they don't want from entering or staying in their country. I am more of a realist. We cannot "fix the issue" - at least not as you seem to contemplate it. We can, however, make changes to our immigration system to update it for the 21st century, and we should change the unjust portions of our immigration law of which there are many.

 

Sorry for the bump, but I never had a chance to read this gem:grin: